Friends (can I call you friends?): I would like to talk to some desisters and/or parents of desisters about the process of socially detransitioning. A mom wrote to me about how nervous her child was because of the social repercussions, and I’d like to write a piece around this and so some interviews. Will you please reach out to me (lisa@lisaselindavis.com, subject line: desistance) if you have any leads or would like to be interviewed? Thanks!
And if you have any thoughts you’d like to share about the subject, please do so here!
Jun 6, 2023·edited Jun 6, 2023Liked by Unyielding Bicyclist
I am very interested in this. My almost 15 year old daughter socially transitioned to male in 2020 during the pandemic. We did not forbid it because we did not know better, this came out of literally nowhere, and we live in a very liberal state and have traditionally been very liberal. She has not yet (thankfully) expressed interest in going further. It remains a touchy subject. I try to be truthful and keep her grounded in reality but not push her away. I get the sense that she may one day drop it but she does not know how. Her literal biggest fear is looking stupid. Like she was wrong-a poser. The only girl she knows who went back to identifying as a girl / using her birth name is someone that she and most others regard as super annoying and ridiculous (for other reasons but -doesn't help sell the detransition very well unfortunately). I think she is terrified to be this girl. No amount of talking/coaching I do with her can get her over this fear of looking stupid-it is huge for this age. I would love to hear how other teens have maybe socially detransitioned and what that looked like. I have been hoping that being trans would start to lose its social cache and maybe the kids would think "that's only something that middle schoolers do" and then she would drop it like a hot potato but that has not happened yet. Also, I believe that my child is gay and that has a lot to do with her social transition. There do not appear to be many masculine-leaning lesbian role models for teens right now and I could use some ideas.
Hi, Beetlejuice: I am an old lesbian (74) married to an old lesbian (75). Wow, though oh so long ago, I sure do understand how hard it is as a teenager not wanting to look stupid in front of friends. Anyway, whether we ourselves are role models of anything is questionable😎, but here may be some places to try:
LGBAlliance USA: https://lgbausa.org/ if you write to the info email address, maybe ask to connect with Jos and let her know Susan Scheid suggested it. I just recently had an exchange with her over a bill in NYS about which I’m concerned, and she wrote back the nicest email. Very upbeat, positive, supportive.
The Lesbian Project: https://www.thelesbianproject.co.uk/ This is in the UK, but the women who started it are two of the coolest lesbians around, Kathleen Stock and Julie Bindel. You’ll see a picture of them at the top. They write articles and appear in videos in a number of places. They started this organization in part precisely because young lesbians are having a hard time finding peers and role models.
Here’s more info on Kathleen Stock, via a blogpost from me. I love the photo of her walking among some men escorting her to the Oxford Union for a debate, which you’ll see. She is a Mom herself and has a wonderful way with young people: https://prufrocksdilemma.wordpress.com/2023/05/31/taking-stock/
I offer all the very best wishes to you and your family.
I don't think that most teen girls really know if they are lesbians or not. Kathleen Stock herself didn't strongly identify as a lesbian until she was in her thirties or forties. She doesn't talk about it much. Her identity as a philosopher seems to be much more important to her than her identity as a lesbian.
Hi, Marnie: good point, and true for me also, actually, although please note that Stock co-founded The Lesbian Project, and I think you'll see, if you look into this, that it's a very important part of who she is and she talks and writes about it a lot. But that's not the point I want to stress here in response to your comment. I think what's at issue is more a matter of helping young people know there are alternative ways of thinking about what they are experiencing. I know how much it helped me sort out my sexual orientation, for example, and, from what has been conveyed to me of the experiences of younger people, being aware of older lesbians helped them, too. I also want to stress that this for certain does not always end up with young women determining they are lesbian themselves. The key thing is freedom of exploration, and I trust parents here that they will know best how and whether to use the information I’ve passed on as possible resources.
At least in most parts of California, gender identity is taught in middle school. I've heard from a mom of a 12-year-old deciding after a middle school class on gender identity that she was "pansexual". This 12-year-old child then declared to her heterosexual mother that she was a "dinosaur" because she had a "cis" identity.
Certainly, there were the dark days when LGB orientation was unacceptable. There are probably a few corners of North American where that is still the case. However, based on my observation of my daughter's high school in San Francisco, the social pressure now for girls is to choose a lesbian, non-binary, or trans identity. And when a girl does that, she often gains greater social approval.
In many cities like San Francisco, New York, Portland, it seems to me that this kind of ideology is as confining as the anti-LGBTQ ideologies of yore.
Very interesting, Marnie. It is always good to get on the ground observations like yours. What I have been hearing (I am in NYC), is that being lesbian is utterly uncool, and that it is much more trendy to be trans. But that is really an aside to the main point, which is that I agree with you, totally, that the effort must be to leave the possibilities wide open. No young person should be pressured into any particular way of being. The point of being young, it seems to me, is to spread your wings, fly every which way, and land whenever and wherever makes most sense and brings you the most joy and fulfillment.
Me too. I wish that there was a family "camp" that focussed on being outdoors, reconneting and implementing Steven Hassan's approach to unindoctrination and recovery in a low key manner, without all the negative labels that ring alarm bells in my kid's head about transphobes and conversion thereapy, etc. Just a place to go, without the internet, to learn to think without influence, learn to communicate, and to reconnect with family, oneself and nature.
I went to family camp with kids a few times. LOVED IT. Can you find one where they don't force pronoun recitals and such, where you totally get away from it? Probably! If your kids are musical (and little) I recommend Ashokan family music camp in NYS.
Lisa, that's an excellent topic that doesn't get discussed at all. I guess it's difficult to find young people who would admit to desisting - I remember one being interviewed by Benjamin Boyce, I think, a young man with autism. But that's about it. My own kid seems to be desisting - she reverted back to her birth name everywhere but in school, and she's dressing very female-typical nowadays. She wore sparkly heels and makeup to prom... But at school, the only real place she socially transitioned, she still maintains her chosen name and pronouns. I'm thinking it's because it's embarrassing to admit that you were "wrong" about your own identity... Also, all her teachers had to put effort into remembering to use the new name and pronouns. She doesn't want to make them have to do it over again, especially not in her last year of school. But all these thoughts are just my conjectures - I really have no idea because I haven't spoken to her about it. She's still not ready to say much about her current feelings regarding her gender identity, and I know better than to push for answers.
This is exactly why I want to write about it—I think we make it hard for kids to have it be a phase when we solidify it in school forms and make a big announcement to friends etc. you don’t get a celebration when you move on from the identity…
And I should add that we insisted that all school forms, awards, report cards etc. list our child's given name, and the school was happy to do it. It's not at all a school that's captured by gender ideologues. We never made an announcement, never celebrated... Her social transition was as low key and as circumscribed as possible, and yet it is hard to leave. My kid is now applying to jobs and universities and is using her legal name, the same she has on all her school documents. Imagine how difficult it would be for her to step away from this if everything was in her chosen name? If she had to "revert" not only in school but in music class? Church? With extended family?
He seems to be somewhat aware of what is going on as he had Tony Attwood on recently and they touched on the rise of trans in autistic teens. However, he needs to update his resource page as he has a link to the Trevor Project. I think he is slowly waking up. I urge you to reach out to him as he knows this subject better then anyone.
Is it possible to allow our children and teenagers to exist outside the assumption of a gender orientation and gender identity?
In this discussion about the possible reasons that children might have experienced gender dysphoria, I see many people discussing the possibility that the teen is gay, has autism or is simply a "tomboy". Not discussed is the impact of pervasive social media, the ubiquity of misogynistic media online and off, and simply the socially disorienting impact of smart phones. Jonathan Haidt has a new substack post on this today:
As a teenager, I did not view myself as a "tomboy." I distinctly remember, even when I was as young as 9 or 10, that "tomboy" was a social stereotype. (That was in about 1970.) I loved to have water fights, catch cray fish, wander in the woods, and play hot wheels. I also had an expansive barbie doll collection. My girlfriends and I formed a band patterned after the Beetles. As a teenager, I learned how to fly a plane. Later, I studied engineering. I was a competitive track and field runner. Who I was attracted to was not a central part of my identity. I do remember being very physically attracted to boys, but it was only peripheral to my identity. But I also had friends who eventually decided they were lesbians. However, that mostly happened in their twenties and thirties. For girls, in the teenage years, and their early twenties, there is a lot of sexual experimentation. I would be very hesitant to assume that a teen girl is a lesbian based on their social presentation or interests.
I feel that, in this discussion about trans-identified teens, we are losing what is important. So much effort is being poured into social identity, whether one is trans, a "tomboy", or gay, or "cis". Something seems to be lost in this discussion. I can't help but think that if we simply allowed teens to have no immediate gender identity, and at the same time allowed them to be comfortable with their biological sex, they might finally be able to get on with their lives without this horrible burden of identity.
Ah, just a side note, Marnie: as you may have seen from Time to Think, it has been established reasonably well that quite a number of young people who think they may be trans turn out, in the end, to be gay, and quite a lot of homophobia is unfortunately part and parcel of the trans push, hence the expression, “transing away the gay.” I think it is useful, as it was for me, to have out there role models for figuring out whether one might be same-sex attracted (not same gender attracted, which I don’t think makes any sense). BUT that by no means should be intended to push anything on anyone. Rather that it is just, as young people, it’s helpful to have positive role models of all types that can be tried on for size.
Yes, I agree that many young people who turn out to be gay or lesbian are being diagnosed at a very young age with being trans. I've bought Time to Think but haven't had a chance to read it yet. I've also heard of case of Susie Green and her oldest child:
Marnie: Great sleuthing, and you are so right about Susie Green! I woke up this AM with the thought that we should ship Susie Green and Rachel Levine off to an otherwise uninhabited desert island and let the rest of us get on with our lives!
I find it truly bizarre how my nephew and his friends (early 20s artsy types) seem to want to cling to extremely specific labels --after my generation spent so much time resisting labels. Like a half caf double shot skinny macchiato with no foam, only its demi-sexual non-binary etc.
We used to fight about who was who, so it changed around. We memorized the entire Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band album. Whenever I hear "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", "Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite!" or "A Day in the Life", it takes me back to being 9 years old, singing these songs very imperfectly, and pretending one day that if we could just do a little better, we might be rock stars. One of us did, in fact, become an actress:
Not me though. It seems that my friend Tosca was better suited to being lead than I.
It is interesting to watch teens try on different identities. My daughter went through a long fairy phase and was desperate for a very long time to be able to fly. She tells me she is happy that I never told her she couldn't fly. I told her: we'll, it's possible that you might be able to fly, or that some fairies can fly, but just don't jump off the roof.
I would have no problem at all with kids trying on trans, bisexual, pansexual, non-binary, and other identities. But it is the seriousness with which so many adults impose an absoluteness on it all that I find so troubling. And horror, irreversible medicalization.
And, as you say, before many of them have even had sex or fallen in love.
I agree that there is something gravely wrong with the various medical bodies that are going along with all of this. I am thankful for the small number of very brave doctors, psychologists, care workers and psychiatrists who have spoken out. We still have a long way to go, however.
Agree. Let’s just deep-six gender identity altogether and free young people to find their way. If they are same-sex attracted, they’ll figure that out in their own time. If they are not, the same pertains. All the rest of this, by which I mean the gender identity stuff, is nothing more than trying things on for size, just as we’ve always done, without the necessity of giving it labels.
The argument has been that trans teens are more prone to suicide if they are not affirmed. However, I've also read that there is little difference between suicide ideation in teens that identify as "cis" versus teens that identify as trans. I'm not clear on this research. One thing that does seem to be very clear, however, is that there is a relationship between depression and smart phone use, especially for girls. (again, Jonathan Haidt's research).
In talking to other mom's about their depressed or gender dysphoric teens, one thing seems clear: with reduced the time on social media, and reduce smart phone access, depression and gender dysphoria seem to dissipate. It's a battle, but worth it.
my interest in this subject comes from experience with a friends child who I met at age 8-ish and thought was male. she had presented as a boy since age 5 or 6 and persisted through puberty but came out of puberty reverting to a more femme presentation. So from shaved head and camo to skirts and long hair. she would have been under strong pressure to transition if she were 8 today. Interestingly she never changed her name or said she was a boy but she was adamant about passing as a boy wherever she went. She also attended an all-girls school so that a decision or declaration about her gender might not have been necessary (she could be herself without renouncing her girlhood) or in a different angle, not permitted or accepted (in which case she might have felt unfairly trapped). Either way she grew out of it. She's 30 now and as far as I know still identifies female. as for the fallout for desisting--if we can call it that--was minimal since she changed schools for high school.
This is the path forward. The researchers (like the arrogant DeVries and Steesma from the 2014 Dutch study) do not do exit interviews of desisters. The above referenced study is the source of "The Dutch Protocols" and 15 of the original 70 left. Because the study was funded by Ferring Pharma, a Dutch drug company producing gonadatrophin agonists, a "leave the kids alone" group wouldn't have the profit-oriented results.
That study should have offered a desistance option, involving quality therapy and body work such as Feldenkrais physical therapy. They should have followed these kids for 10 years. The above researchers lost 50% of the 53 who did continue to hormones and surgeries. The ones they found with the 800,000 Euro funding they got recently were found to "identify" differently from the opposite sex persona they had during the study. Lisa Mondegreen informed us that they decided a new term, "gender incongruity" was needed to handle that cohort.
Those who desist and go on to accept their physical, sexed body are going to be the source of the best practices. Great idea. I know there is a detransitioner in my town, and there will be more, because boys are now in the girls' locker room at the local high school, I've heard from an agitated dad. Best to figure out the careful survey questions and assure the desist cohort that they will not be "outed" or harassed or cancelled. What I've heard is that they don't like to talk about it, they feel they went through a delusion and they just want to move on. We'll never learn if we can't get them to open up.
Lisa, please, please also talk about how social transition and a blanket policy of only affirmation can cause real and lasting serious harms even if medicalization never happens and the child eventually desists.
There’s also a very real cost when your child needs proper mental healthcare and is not getting it because all the professionals are too excited over getting to talk about the child’s gender identity.
I am the very last person in the world to believe that adolescents should make major, life-altering decisions about their lives. Thank goodness most of us did not have that power, I'm sure most will agree.
That said, I've always felt that American culture, broadly, is sorely lacking in rites of passages for all ages, but especially the passage from child>adolescent>adult. Yes, yes, I know, some religions (Judaism comes first to mind) do mark this passage, but few would argue that, say, Catholic or Episcopal confirmation is experienced by many kids (or adults) as particularly meaningful ... certainly not personal.
I've always thought communities should develop rites of passage for adolescents, and as part of those rites, any child can choose his/her own name (much as, say, a confirmation name is bestowed). Sure, we'd get a lot of absurd monikers (Atlas? Really?), but some kids might really put thought into this, particularly if the ritual became normalized over time. Some kids might choose their given name, while others might choose a "second name" that they use only with friends and family, while others might truly want to leave their "childhood name" behind and adopt a new one that is more meaningful to them.
Is that a crazy idea? I've thought about this for about (no joke) 50 years, and despite the possibility of some silliness, presumably caring adults might gently influence a kid's decision.
As a 7-year-old, I wanted to be Tony—the name of one of my best friends. I actually tried to make it happen, but no soap. But you know, as a 13-year-old, I was extremely well-read, romantic, artistic and full of wonder for the universe and everything in it. I might have come up with something pretty evocative, and satisfying (to me, at least), if given the chance.
At any rate, I do sometimes wonder if some adolescent angst (including trans mania) isn't at least *partially* connected to this culture's general lack of respect or acknowledgement for the passage from childhood to adolescence and adulthood.
I love this thought! You know, my Mom had the idea of delaying our baptism so my sister and I could choose our own middle names. As the older one, I was first to turn 7, I think it was, the year Mom chose for me to be baptized. I sat at several successive dinner tables picking out names. Dad would call me by all of them :Eloise-Evelyn-Elizabeth-Jean. The Evelyn in Eloise-Evelyn referred to Evelyn Rudie, who became “an overnight star, in 1956, with her performance in the title role of the episode "Eloise" on television's Playhouse 90. It brought her critical acclaim, much press coverage, and an Emmy nomination at age six—the first time a child actress was so honored.” The more quotidian Jean, unfortunately, won out, because my best friend at the time was Jean, whose Mom made homemade donuts and a delicacy I had never seen before: donut holes. Mom’s hope had been that I’d pick her choice, which was Elizabeth, after one of her aunts. That hope dashed, I ended up with “Elizabeth Jean,” and Mom didn’t continue the tradition for my sister. I wonder what the outcome would have been had we had a rite of passage at puberty, instead.
Ugh, Jenny. Really?! What a virtue signaler she was. I'm glad you can have a small sense of humor during all of this. I love your dad's Speedo story. Thanks for helping me smile today. And thankful your daughter is heading towards the other side of this. I think this is huge, how do you walk this back? We're moving next spring to shake things up and be some place where there are places to go and things to do!
Who knows where these kids are in the path back. I thought our kid was no longer interested in T but she just came to us the other day and told us she wants to try 'micro-dosing' it now. Huh? We gave it a hard no and so far, no more comment.
I'm not a psychologist, but so long as your daughter is off the testoterone, what is wrong with her calling herself Hercules? To me, one thought is that she might be trying to call to a higher power. Hercules was a Roman god known for his strength and for adventure. There is, in fact, at least one real women who lived the life of Hercules. Her name is Bouboulina. There's a famous painting of her.
It could be that "Hercules" is just a persona of your daughter that she is trying to integrate into her identity as a developing young woman. Yes, I agree that it is problematic that people around her don't get this possibility and are instead assuming she is "trans".
I'm not suggesting you social transition your daughter. I'm suggesting that she may be reaching out for an adventurous identity. Not finding this easily in female identities, she has somehow opted for Hercules.
I'm sending thoughts like daggers from Ohio to Oregon, aimed straight at that grotesque virtue-signaler, Jenny. What is wrong with people?!?!?!?!
Let's hope that fall will bring a chance for "Carolina" to reboot. Maybe you can cautiously let her know you haven't forgotten her asking how to walk it back. Maybe you can help her brainstorm calm, brief responses to the busybodies.
I am very interested in this. My almost 15 year old daughter socially transitioned to male in 2020 during the pandemic. We did not forbid it because we did not know better, this came out of literally nowhere, and we live in a very liberal state and have traditionally been very liberal. She has not yet (thankfully) expressed interest in going further. It remains a touchy subject. I try to be truthful and keep her grounded in reality but not push her away. I get the sense that she may one day drop it but she does not know how. Her literal biggest fear is looking stupid. Like she was wrong-a poser. The only girl she knows who went back to identifying as a girl / using her birth name is someone that she and most others regard as super annoying and ridiculous (for other reasons but -doesn't help sell the detransition very well unfortunately). I think she is terrified to be this girl. No amount of talking/coaching I do with her can get her over this fear of looking stupid-it is huge for this age. I would love to hear how other teens have maybe socially detransitioned and what that looked like. I have been hoping that being trans would start to lose its social cache and maybe the kids would think "that's only something that middle schoolers do" and then she would drop it like a hot potato but that has not happened yet. Also, I believe that my child is gay and that has a lot to do with her social transition. There do not appear to be many masculine-leaning lesbian role models for teens right now and I could use some ideas.
Hi, Beetlejuice: I am an old lesbian (74) married to an old lesbian (75). Wow, though oh so long ago, I sure do understand how hard it is as a teenager not wanting to look stupid in front of friends. Anyway, whether we ourselves are role models of anything is questionable😎, but here may be some places to try:
LGBAlliance USA: https://lgbausa.org/ if you write to the info email address, maybe ask to connect with Jos and let her know Susan Scheid suggested it. I just recently had an exchange with her over a bill in NYS about which I’m concerned, and she wrote back the nicest email. Very upbeat, positive, supportive.
The Lesbian Project: https://www.thelesbianproject.co.uk/ This is in the UK, but the women who started it are two of the coolest lesbians around, Kathleen Stock and Julie Bindel. You’ll see a picture of them at the top. They write articles and appear in videos in a number of places. They started this organization in part precisely because young lesbians are having a hard time finding peers and role models.
Here’s more info on Kathleen Stock, via a blogpost from me. I love the photo of her walking among some men escorting her to the Oxford Union for a debate, which you’ll see. She is a Mom herself and has a wonderful way with young people: https://prufrocksdilemma.wordpress.com/2023/05/31/taking-stock/
I offer all the very best wishes to you and your family.
I don't think that most teen girls really know if they are lesbians or not. Kathleen Stock herself didn't strongly identify as a lesbian until she was in her thirties or forties. She doesn't talk about it much. Her identity as a philosopher seems to be much more important to her than her identity as a lesbian.
Hi, Marnie: good point, and true for me also, actually, although please note that Stock co-founded The Lesbian Project, and I think you'll see, if you look into this, that it's a very important part of who she is and she talks and writes about it a lot. But that's not the point I want to stress here in response to your comment. I think what's at issue is more a matter of helping young people know there are alternative ways of thinking about what they are experiencing. I know how much it helped me sort out my sexual orientation, for example, and, from what has been conveyed to me of the experiences of younger people, being aware of older lesbians helped them, too. I also want to stress that this for certain does not always end up with young women determining they are lesbian themselves. The key thing is freedom of exploration, and I trust parents here that they will know best how and whether to use the information I’ve passed on as possible resources.
At least in most parts of California, gender identity is taught in middle school. I've heard from a mom of a 12-year-old deciding after a middle school class on gender identity that she was "pansexual". This 12-year-old child then declared to her heterosexual mother that she was a "dinosaur" because she had a "cis" identity.
Certainly, there were the dark days when LGB orientation was unacceptable. There are probably a few corners of North American where that is still the case. However, based on my observation of my daughter's high school in San Francisco, the social pressure now for girls is to choose a lesbian, non-binary, or trans identity. And when a girl does that, she often gains greater social approval.
In many cities like San Francisco, New York, Portland, it seems to me that this kind of ideology is as confining as the anti-LGBTQ ideologies of yore.
Very interesting, Marnie. It is always good to get on the ground observations like yours. What I have been hearing (I am in NYC), is that being lesbian is utterly uncool, and that it is much more trendy to be trans. But that is really an aside to the main point, which is that I agree with you, totally, that the effort must be to leave the possibilities wide open. No young person should be pressured into any particular way of being. The point of being young, it seems to me, is to spread your wings, fly every which way, and land whenever and wherever makes most sense and brings you the most joy and fulfillment.
If you can, I would love to have audio and lyrics of this song!!
I would too!
Apropos of nothing, I have begun studying the historiography of "cult deprogramming."
Me too. I wish that there was a family "camp" that focussed on being outdoors, reconneting and implementing Steven Hassan's approach to unindoctrination and recovery in a low key manner, without all the negative labels that ring alarm bells in my kid's head about transphobes and conversion thereapy, etc. Just a place to go, without the internet, to learn to think without influence, learn to communicate, and to reconnect with family, oneself and nature.
I went to family camp with kids a few times. LOVED IT. Can you find one where they don't force pronoun recitals and such, where you totally get away from it? Probably! If your kids are musical (and little) I recommend Ashokan family music camp in NYS.
Along with a TERF dating app, I sense untapped business opportunities here
It’s hard to find any camp that isn’t all-in on this.
If you live in California, Nevada or Oregon, Manzanita Lake in Lassen National Park is a great off grid place for a family vacation.
maybe try a mindfulness practice retreat. that could be very helpful.
Lisa, that's an excellent topic that doesn't get discussed at all. I guess it's difficult to find young people who would admit to desisting - I remember one being interviewed by Benjamin Boyce, I think, a young man with autism. But that's about it. My own kid seems to be desisting - she reverted back to her birth name everywhere but in school, and she's dressing very female-typical nowadays. She wore sparkly heels and makeup to prom... But at school, the only real place she socially transitioned, she still maintains her chosen name and pronouns. I'm thinking it's because it's embarrassing to admit that you were "wrong" about your own identity... Also, all her teachers had to put effort into remembering to use the new name and pronouns. She doesn't want to make them have to do it over again, especially not in her last year of school. But all these thoughts are just my conjectures - I really have no idea because I haven't spoken to her about it. She's still not ready to say much about her current feelings regarding her gender identity, and I know better than to push for answers.
This is exactly why I want to write about it—I think we make it hard for kids to have it be a phase when we solidify it in school forms and make a big announcement to friends etc. you don’t get a celebration when you move on from the identity…
And I should add that we insisted that all school forms, awards, report cards etc. list our child's given name, and the school was happy to do it. It's not at all a school that's captured by gender ideologues. We never made an announcement, never celebrated... Her social transition was as low key and as circumscribed as possible, and yet it is hard to leave. My kid is now applying to jobs and universities and is using her legal name, the same she has on all her school documents. Imagine how difficult it would be for her to step away from this if everything was in her chosen name? If she had to "revert" not only in school but in music class? Church? With extended family?
BTW, Lisa, yes please, DO call us friends, and thank you for being a friend to all here.
Here are some resources from Steven Hassan, cult expert: https://freedomofmind.com/
He seems to be somewhat aware of what is going on as he had Tony Attwood on recently and they touched on the rise of trans in autistic teens. However, he needs to update his resource page as he has a link to the Trevor Project. I think he is slowly waking up. I urge you to reach out to him as he knows this subject better then anyone.
Link to the Attwood interview for those interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/cultpodcasts/comments/11d910v/autism_extremism_and_protecting_the_vulnerable/
Some thoughts:
Is it possible to allow our children and teenagers to exist outside the assumption of a gender orientation and gender identity?
In this discussion about the possible reasons that children might have experienced gender dysphoria, I see many people discussing the possibility that the teen is gay, has autism or is simply a "tomboy". Not discussed is the impact of pervasive social media, the ubiquity of misogynistic media online and off, and simply the socially disorienting impact of smart phones. Jonathan Haidt has a new substack post on this today:
https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/phone-free-schools
As a teenager, I did not view myself as a "tomboy." I distinctly remember, even when I was as young as 9 or 10, that "tomboy" was a social stereotype. (That was in about 1970.) I loved to have water fights, catch cray fish, wander in the woods, and play hot wheels. I also had an expansive barbie doll collection. My girlfriends and I formed a band patterned after the Beetles. As a teenager, I learned how to fly a plane. Later, I studied engineering. I was a competitive track and field runner. Who I was attracted to was not a central part of my identity. I do remember being very physically attracted to boys, but it was only peripheral to my identity. But I also had friends who eventually decided they were lesbians. However, that mostly happened in their twenties and thirties. For girls, in the teenage years, and their early twenties, there is a lot of sexual experimentation. I would be very hesitant to assume that a teen girl is a lesbian based on their social presentation or interests.
I feel that, in this discussion about trans-identified teens, we are losing what is important. So much effort is being poured into social identity, whether one is trans, a "tomboy", or gay, or "cis". Something seems to be lost in this discussion. I can't help but think that if we simply allowed teens to have no immediate gender identity, and at the same time allowed them to be comfortable with their biological sex, they might finally be able to get on with their lives without this horrible burden of identity.
Ah, just a side note, Marnie: as you may have seen from Time to Think, it has been established reasonably well that quite a number of young people who think they may be trans turn out, in the end, to be gay, and quite a lot of homophobia is unfortunately part and parcel of the trans push, hence the expression, “transing away the gay.” I think it is useful, as it was for me, to have out there role models for figuring out whether one might be same-sex attracted (not same gender attracted, which I don’t think makes any sense). BUT that by no means should be intended to push anything on anyone. Rather that it is just, as young people, it’s helpful to have positive role models of all types that can be tried on for size.
Yes, I agree that many young people who turn out to be gay or lesbian are being diagnosed at a very young age with being trans. I've bought Time to Think but haven't had a chance to read it yet. I've also heard of case of Susie Green and her oldest child:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susie_Green
There was also a very interesting talk I came across by Karon Monaghan KC:
Sex, Lies and Women’s Rights:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3IFcnZEEkZivYf93vW8M7Y?si=H7TvW_5dR0-XeLtjFMEfqA&nd=1
She observes that many countries that have legalized trans surgeries are very anti LGB.
Marnie: Great sleuthing, and you are so right about Susie Green! I woke up this AM with the thought that we should ship Susie Green and Rachel Levine off to an otherwise uninhabited desert island and let the rest of us get on with our lives!
I find it truly bizarre how my nephew and his friends (early 20s artsy types) seem to want to cling to extremely specific labels --after my generation spent so much time resisting labels. Like a half caf double shot skinny macchiato with no foam, only its demi-sexual non-binary etc.
Will have to memorize that one so I can wing if off at the appropriate moment!
We used to fight about who was who, so it changed around. We memorized the entire Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band album. Whenever I hear "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", "Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite!" or "A Day in the Life", it takes me back to being 9 years old, singing these songs very imperfectly, and pretending one day that if we could just do a little better, we might be rock stars. One of us did, in fact, become an actress:
Tosca Baggoo:
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0046646/
Not me though. It seems that my friend Tosca was better suited to being lead than I.
It is interesting to watch teens try on different identities. My daughter went through a long fairy phase and was desperate for a very long time to be able to fly. She tells me she is happy that I never told her she couldn't fly. I told her: we'll, it's possible that you might be able to fly, or that some fairies can fly, but just don't jump off the roof.
I would have no problem at all with kids trying on trans, bisexual, pansexual, non-binary, and other identities. But it is the seriousness with which so many adults impose an absoluteness on it all that I find so troubling. And horror, irreversible medicalization.
And, as you say, before many of them have even had sex or fallen in love.
I agree that there is something gravely wrong with the various medical bodies that are going along with all of this. I am thankful for the small number of very brave doctors, psychologists, care workers and psychiatrists who have spoken out. We still have a long way to go, however.
Agree. Let’s just deep-six gender identity altogether and free young people to find their way. If they are same-sex attracted, they’ll figure that out in their own time. If they are not, the same pertains. All the rest of this, by which I mean the gender identity stuff, is nothing more than trying things on for size, just as we’ve always done, without the necessity of giving it labels.
The argument has been that trans teens are more prone to suicide if they are not affirmed. However, I've also read that there is little difference between suicide ideation in teens that identify as "cis" versus teens that identify as trans. I'm not clear on this research. One thing that does seem to be very clear, however, is that there is a relationship between depression and smart phone use, especially for girls. (again, Jonathan Haidt's research).
In talking to other mom's about their depressed or gender dysphoric teens, one thing seems clear: with reduced the time on social media, and reduce smart phone access, depression and gender dysphoria seem to dissipate. It's a battle, but worth it.
my interest in this subject comes from experience with a friends child who I met at age 8-ish and thought was male. she had presented as a boy since age 5 or 6 and persisted through puberty but came out of puberty reverting to a more femme presentation. So from shaved head and camo to skirts and long hair. she would have been under strong pressure to transition if she were 8 today. Interestingly she never changed her name or said she was a boy but she was adamant about passing as a boy wherever she went. She also attended an all-girls school so that a decision or declaration about her gender might not have been necessary (she could be herself without renouncing her girlhood) or in a different angle, not permitted or accepted (in which case she might have felt unfairly trapped). Either way she grew out of it. She's 30 now and as far as I know still identifies female. as for the fallout for desisting--if we can call it that--was minimal since she changed schools for high school.
This is the path forward. The researchers (like the arrogant DeVries and Steesma from the 2014 Dutch study) do not do exit interviews of desisters. The above referenced study is the source of "The Dutch Protocols" and 15 of the original 70 left. Because the study was funded by Ferring Pharma, a Dutch drug company producing gonadatrophin agonists, a "leave the kids alone" group wouldn't have the profit-oriented results.
That study should have offered a desistance option, involving quality therapy and body work such as Feldenkrais physical therapy. They should have followed these kids for 10 years. The above researchers lost 50% of the 53 who did continue to hormones and surgeries. The ones they found with the 800,000 Euro funding they got recently were found to "identify" differently from the opposite sex persona they had during the study. Lisa Mondegreen informed us that they decided a new term, "gender incongruity" was needed to handle that cohort.
Those who desist and go on to accept their physical, sexed body are going to be the source of the best practices. Great idea. I know there is a detransitioner in my town, and there will be more, because boys are now in the girls' locker room at the local high school, I've heard from an agitated dad. Best to figure out the careful survey questions and assure the desist cohort that they will not be "outed" or harassed or cancelled. What I've heard is that they don't like to talk about it, they feel they went through a delusion and they just want to move on. We'll never learn if we can't get them to open up.
Very insightful.
Thanks. I've been through the "gender mill" as a trans widow.
I'm looking forward to the film Behind the Looking Glass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-XOmif5N78
Thanks! My voice is there and I was interviewed extensively. Here's a link to part of what's in there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IyxZz7nKIw&t=1s
Lisa, please, please also talk about how social transition and a blanket policy of only affirmation can cause real and lasting serious harms even if medicalization never happens and the child eventually desists.
There’s also a very real cost when your child needs proper mental healthcare and is not getting it because all the professionals are too excited over getting to talk about the child’s gender identity.
This is a bit of a tangent, but....
I am the very last person in the world to believe that adolescents should make major, life-altering decisions about their lives. Thank goodness most of us did not have that power, I'm sure most will agree.
That said, I've always felt that American culture, broadly, is sorely lacking in rites of passages for all ages, but especially the passage from child>adolescent>adult. Yes, yes, I know, some religions (Judaism comes first to mind) do mark this passage, but few would argue that, say, Catholic or Episcopal confirmation is experienced by many kids (or adults) as particularly meaningful ... certainly not personal.
I've always thought communities should develop rites of passage for adolescents, and as part of those rites, any child can choose his/her own name (much as, say, a confirmation name is bestowed). Sure, we'd get a lot of absurd monikers (Atlas? Really?), but some kids might really put thought into this, particularly if the ritual became normalized over time. Some kids might choose their given name, while others might choose a "second name" that they use only with friends and family, while others might truly want to leave their "childhood name" behind and adopt a new one that is more meaningful to them.
Is that a crazy idea? I've thought about this for about (no joke) 50 years, and despite the possibility of some silliness, presumably caring adults might gently influence a kid's decision.
As a 7-year-old, I wanted to be Tony—the name of one of my best friends. I actually tried to make it happen, but no soap. But you know, as a 13-year-old, I was extremely well-read, romantic, artistic and full of wonder for the universe and everything in it. I might have come up with something pretty evocative, and satisfying (to me, at least), if given the chance.
At any rate, I do sometimes wonder if some adolescent angst (including trans mania) isn't at least *partially* connected to this culture's general lack of respect or acknowledgement for the passage from childhood to adolescence and adulthood.
Signed,
Starhawk (kidding)
I love this thought! You know, my Mom had the idea of delaying our baptism so my sister and I could choose our own middle names. As the older one, I was first to turn 7, I think it was, the year Mom chose for me to be baptized. I sat at several successive dinner tables picking out names. Dad would call me by all of them :Eloise-Evelyn-Elizabeth-Jean. The Evelyn in Eloise-Evelyn referred to Evelyn Rudie, who became “an overnight star, in 1956, with her performance in the title role of the episode "Eloise" on television's Playhouse 90. It brought her critical acclaim, much press coverage, and an Emmy nomination at age six—the first time a child actress was so honored.” The more quotidian Jean, unfortunately, won out, because my best friend at the time was Jean, whose Mom made homemade donuts and a delicacy I had never seen before: donut holes. Mom’s hope had been that I’d pick her choice, which was Elizabeth, after one of her aunts. That hope dashed, I ended up with “Elizabeth Jean,” and Mom didn’t continue the tradition for my sister. I wonder what the outcome would have been had we had a rite of passage at puberty, instead.
Ugh, Jenny. Really?! What a virtue signaler she was. I'm glad you can have a small sense of humor during all of this. I love your dad's Speedo story. Thanks for helping me smile today. And thankful your daughter is heading towards the other side of this. I think this is huge, how do you walk this back? We're moving next spring to shake things up and be some place where there are places to go and things to do!
Who knows where these kids are in the path back. I thought our kid was no longer interested in T but she just came to us the other day and told us she wants to try 'micro-dosing' it now. Huh? We gave it a hard no and so far, no more comment.
Indeed. This is exactly it. I hear you on the frustration that no one else in the family will be honest. They need this.
I'm not a psychologist, but so long as your daughter is off the testoterone, what is wrong with her calling herself Hercules? To me, one thought is that she might be trying to call to a higher power. Hercules was a Roman god known for his strength and for adventure. There is, in fact, at least one real women who lived the life of Hercules. Her name is Bouboulina. There's a famous painting of her.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laskarina_Bouboulina
Some other women who lived a similar life: Boudica:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica
Also Joan of Arc and Elizabeth I.
It could be that "Hercules" is just a persona of your daughter that she is trying to integrate into her identity as a developing young woman. Yes, I agree that it is problematic that people around her don't get this possibility and are instead assuming she is "trans".
I'm not suggesting you social transition your daughter. I'm suggesting that she may be reaching out for an adventurous identity. Not finding this easily in female identities, she has somehow opted for Hercules.
I'm sending thoughts like daggers from Ohio to Oregon, aimed straight at that grotesque virtue-signaler, Jenny. What is wrong with people?!?!?!?!
Let's hope that fall will bring a chance for "Carolina" to reboot. Maybe you can cautiously let her know you haven't forgotten her asking how to walk it back. Maybe you can help her brainstorm calm, brief responses to the busybodies.
LOL I did the exact same thing with my daughter’s binder!
You got banned for what?
Which study and on which story?!
Ugh that’s awful.
Jenny is the worst kind of bitch. Unbelievable!
What is Jenny’s problem? I don’t know her and o hate her