Friends (can I call you friends?): I would like to talk to some desisters and/or parents of desisters about the process of socially detransitioning. A mom wrote to me about how nervous her child was because of the social repercussions, and I’d like to write a piece around this and so some interviews. Will you please reach out to me (lisa@lisaselindavis.com, subject line: desistance) if you have any leads or would like to be interviewed? Thanks!
And if you have any thoughts you’d like to share about the subject, please do so here!
Jun 6, 2023·edited Jun 6, 2023Liked by Unyielding Bicyclist
I am very interested in this. My almost 15 year old daughter socially transitioned to male in 2020 during the pandemic. We did not forbid it because we did not know better, this came out of literally nowhere, and we live in a very liberal state and have traditionally been very liberal. She has not yet (thankfully) expressed interest in going further. It remains a touchy subject. I try to be truthful and keep her grounded in reality but not push her away. I get the sense that she may one day drop it but she does not know how. Her literal biggest fear is looking stupid. Like she was wrong-a poser. The only girl she knows who went back to identifying as a girl / using her birth name is someone that she and most others regard as super annoying and ridiculous (for other reasons but -doesn't help sell the detransition very well unfortunately). I think she is terrified to be this girl. No amount of talking/coaching I do with her can get her over this fear of looking stupid-it is huge for this age. I would love to hear how other teens have maybe socially detransitioned and what that looked like. I have been hoping that being trans would start to lose its social cache and maybe the kids would think "that's only something that middle schoolers do" and then she would drop it like a hot potato but that has not happened yet. Also, I believe that my child is gay and that has a lot to do with her social transition. There do not appear to be many masculine-leaning lesbian role models for teens right now and I could use some ideas.
Lisa, that's an excellent topic that doesn't get discussed at all. I guess it's difficult to find young people who would admit to desisting - I remember one being interviewed by Benjamin Boyce, I think, a young man with autism. But that's about it. My own kid seems to be desisting - she reverted back to her birth name everywhere but in school, and she's dressing very female-typical nowadays. She wore sparkly heels and makeup to prom... But at school, the only real place she socially transitioned, she still maintains her chosen name and pronouns. I'm thinking it's because it's embarrassing to admit that you were "wrong" about your own identity... Also, all her teachers had to put effort into remembering to use the new name and pronouns. She doesn't want to make them have to do it over again, especially not in her last year of school. But all these thoughts are just my conjectures - I really have no idea because I haven't spoken to her about it. She's still not ready to say much about her current feelings regarding her gender identity, and I know better than to push for answers.
He seems to be somewhat aware of what is going on as he had Tony Attwood on recently and they touched on the rise of trans in autistic teens. However, he needs to update his resource page as he has a link to the Trevor Project. I think he is slowly waking up. I urge you to reach out to him as he knows this subject better then anyone.
Is it possible to allow our children and teenagers to exist outside the assumption of a gender orientation and gender identity?
In this discussion about the possible reasons that children might have experienced gender dysphoria, I see many people discussing the possibility that the teen is gay, has autism or is simply a "tomboy". Not discussed is the impact of pervasive social media, the ubiquity of misogynistic media online and off, and simply the socially disorienting impact of smart phones. Jonathan Haidt has a new substack post on this today:
As a teenager, I did not view myself as a "tomboy." I distinctly remember, even when I was as young as 9 or 10, that "tomboy" was a social stereotype. (That was in about 1970.) I loved to have water fights, catch cray fish, wander in the woods, and play hot wheels. I also had an expansive barbie doll collection. My girlfriends and I formed a band patterned after the Beetles. As a teenager, I learned how to fly a plane. Later, I studied engineering. I was a competitive track and field runner. Who I was attracted to was not a central part of my identity. I do remember being very physically attracted to boys, but it was only peripheral to my identity. But I also had friends who eventually decided they were lesbians. However, that mostly happened in their twenties and thirties. For girls, in the teenage years, and their early twenties, there is a lot of sexual experimentation. I would be very hesitant to assume that a teen girl is a lesbian based on their social presentation or interests.
I feel that, in this discussion about trans-identified teens, we are losing what is important. So much effort is being poured into social identity, whether one is trans, a "tomboy", or gay, or "cis". Something seems to be lost in this discussion. I can't help but think that if we simply allowed teens to have no immediate gender identity, and at the same time allowed them to be comfortable with their biological sex, they might finally be able to get on with their lives without this horrible burden of identity.
my interest in this subject comes from experience with a friends child who I met at age 8-ish and thought was male. she had presented as a boy since age 5 or 6 and persisted through puberty but came out of puberty reverting to a more femme presentation. So from shaved head and camo to skirts and long hair. she would have been under strong pressure to transition if she were 8 today. Interestingly she never changed her name or said she was a boy but she was adamant about passing as a boy wherever she went. She also attended an all-girls school so that a decision or declaration about her gender might not have been necessary (she could be herself without renouncing her girlhood) or in a different angle, not permitted or accepted (in which case she might have felt unfairly trapped). Either way she grew out of it. She's 30 now and as far as I know still identifies female. as for the fallout for desisting--if we can call it that--was minimal since she changed schools for high school.
This is the path forward. The researchers (like the arrogant DeVries and Steesma from the 2014 Dutch study) do not do exit interviews of desisters. The above referenced study is the source of "The Dutch Protocols" and 15 of the original 70 left. Because the study was funded by Ferring Pharma, a Dutch drug company producing gonadatrophin agonists, a "leave the kids alone" group wouldn't have the profit-oriented results.
That study should have offered a desistance option, involving quality therapy and body work such as Feldenkrais physical therapy. They should have followed these kids for 10 years. The above researchers lost 50% of the 53 who did continue to hormones and surgeries. The ones they found with the 800,000 Euro funding they got recently were found to "identify" differently from the opposite sex persona they had during the study. Lisa Mondegreen informed us that they decided a new term, "gender incongruity" was needed to handle that cohort.
Those who desist and go on to accept their physical, sexed body are going to be the source of the best practices. Great idea. I know there is a detransitioner in my town, and there will be more, because boys are now in the girls' locker room at the local high school, I've heard from an agitated dad. Best to figure out the careful survey questions and assure the desist cohort that they will not be "outed" or harassed or cancelled. What I've heard is that they don't like to talk about it, they feel they went through a delusion and they just want to move on. We'll never learn if we can't get them to open up.
Lisa, please, please also talk about how social transition and a blanket policy of only affirmation can cause real and lasting serious harms even if medicalization never happens and the child eventually desists.
I am the very last person in the world to believe that adolescents should make major, life-altering decisions about their lives. Thank goodness most of us did not have that power, I'm sure most will agree.
That said, I've always felt that American culture, broadly, is sorely lacking in rites of passages for all ages, but especially the passage from child>adolescent>adult. Yes, yes, I know, some religions (Judaism comes first to mind) do mark this passage, but few would argue that, say, Catholic or Episcopal confirmation is experienced by many kids (or adults) as particularly meaningful ... certainly not personal.
I've always thought communities should develop rites of passage for adolescents, and as part of those rites, any child can choose his/her own name (much as, say, a confirmation name is bestowed). Sure, we'd get a lot of absurd monikers (Atlas? Really?), but some kids might really put thought into this, particularly if the ritual became normalized over time. Some kids might choose their given name, while others might choose a "second name" that they use only with friends and family, while others might truly want to leave their "childhood name" behind and adopt a new one that is more meaningful to them.
Is that a crazy idea? I've thought about this for about (no joke) 50 years, and despite the possibility of some silliness, presumably caring adults might gently influence a kid's decision.
As a 7-year-old, I wanted to be Tony—the name of one of my best friends. I actually tried to make it happen, but no soap. But you know, as a 13-year-old, I was extremely well-read, romantic, artistic and full of wonder for the universe and everything in it. I might have come up with something pretty evocative, and satisfying (to me, at least), if given the chance.
At any rate, I do sometimes wonder if some adolescent angst (including trans mania) isn't at least *partially* connected to this culture's general lack of respect or acknowledgement for the passage from childhood to adolescence and adulthood.
I am very interested in this. My almost 15 year old daughter socially transitioned to male in 2020 during the pandemic. We did not forbid it because we did not know better, this came out of literally nowhere, and we live in a very liberal state and have traditionally been very liberal. She has not yet (thankfully) expressed interest in going further. It remains a touchy subject. I try to be truthful and keep her grounded in reality but not push her away. I get the sense that she may one day drop it but she does not know how. Her literal biggest fear is looking stupid. Like she was wrong-a poser. The only girl she knows who went back to identifying as a girl / using her birth name is someone that she and most others regard as super annoying and ridiculous (for other reasons but -doesn't help sell the detransition very well unfortunately). I think she is terrified to be this girl. No amount of talking/coaching I do with her can get her over this fear of looking stupid-it is huge for this age. I would love to hear how other teens have maybe socially detransitioned and what that looked like. I have been hoping that being trans would start to lose its social cache and maybe the kids would think "that's only something that middle schoolers do" and then she would drop it like a hot potato but that has not happened yet. Also, I believe that my child is gay and that has a lot to do with her social transition. There do not appear to be many masculine-leaning lesbian role models for teens right now and I could use some ideas.
Apropos of nothing, I have begun studying the historiography of "cult deprogramming."
Lisa, that's an excellent topic that doesn't get discussed at all. I guess it's difficult to find young people who would admit to desisting - I remember one being interviewed by Benjamin Boyce, I think, a young man with autism. But that's about it. My own kid seems to be desisting - she reverted back to her birth name everywhere but in school, and she's dressing very female-typical nowadays. She wore sparkly heels and makeup to prom... But at school, the only real place she socially transitioned, she still maintains her chosen name and pronouns. I'm thinking it's because it's embarrassing to admit that you were "wrong" about your own identity... Also, all her teachers had to put effort into remembering to use the new name and pronouns. She doesn't want to make them have to do it over again, especially not in her last year of school. But all these thoughts are just my conjectures - I really have no idea because I haven't spoken to her about it. She's still not ready to say much about her current feelings regarding her gender identity, and I know better than to push for answers.
BTW, Lisa, yes please, DO call us friends, and thank you for being a friend to all here.
Here are some resources from Steven Hassan, cult expert: https://freedomofmind.com/
He seems to be somewhat aware of what is going on as he had Tony Attwood on recently and they touched on the rise of trans in autistic teens. However, he needs to update his resource page as he has a link to the Trevor Project. I think he is slowly waking up. I urge you to reach out to him as he knows this subject better then anyone.
Some thoughts:
Is it possible to allow our children and teenagers to exist outside the assumption of a gender orientation and gender identity?
In this discussion about the possible reasons that children might have experienced gender dysphoria, I see many people discussing the possibility that the teen is gay, has autism or is simply a "tomboy". Not discussed is the impact of pervasive social media, the ubiquity of misogynistic media online and off, and simply the socially disorienting impact of smart phones. Jonathan Haidt has a new substack post on this today:
https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/phone-free-schools
As a teenager, I did not view myself as a "tomboy." I distinctly remember, even when I was as young as 9 or 10, that "tomboy" was a social stereotype. (That was in about 1970.) I loved to have water fights, catch cray fish, wander in the woods, and play hot wheels. I also had an expansive barbie doll collection. My girlfriends and I formed a band patterned after the Beetles. As a teenager, I learned how to fly a plane. Later, I studied engineering. I was a competitive track and field runner. Who I was attracted to was not a central part of my identity. I do remember being very physically attracted to boys, but it was only peripheral to my identity. But I also had friends who eventually decided they were lesbians. However, that mostly happened in their twenties and thirties. For girls, in the teenage years, and their early twenties, there is a lot of sexual experimentation. I would be very hesitant to assume that a teen girl is a lesbian based on their social presentation or interests.
I feel that, in this discussion about trans-identified teens, we are losing what is important. So much effort is being poured into social identity, whether one is trans, a "tomboy", or gay, or "cis". Something seems to be lost in this discussion. I can't help but think that if we simply allowed teens to have no immediate gender identity, and at the same time allowed them to be comfortable with their biological sex, they might finally be able to get on with their lives without this horrible burden of identity.
my interest in this subject comes from experience with a friends child who I met at age 8-ish and thought was male. she had presented as a boy since age 5 or 6 and persisted through puberty but came out of puberty reverting to a more femme presentation. So from shaved head and camo to skirts and long hair. she would have been under strong pressure to transition if she were 8 today. Interestingly she never changed her name or said she was a boy but she was adamant about passing as a boy wherever she went. She also attended an all-girls school so that a decision or declaration about her gender might not have been necessary (she could be herself without renouncing her girlhood) or in a different angle, not permitted or accepted (in which case she might have felt unfairly trapped). Either way she grew out of it. She's 30 now and as far as I know still identifies female. as for the fallout for desisting--if we can call it that--was minimal since she changed schools for high school.
This is the path forward. The researchers (like the arrogant DeVries and Steesma from the 2014 Dutch study) do not do exit interviews of desisters. The above referenced study is the source of "The Dutch Protocols" and 15 of the original 70 left. Because the study was funded by Ferring Pharma, a Dutch drug company producing gonadatrophin agonists, a "leave the kids alone" group wouldn't have the profit-oriented results.
That study should have offered a desistance option, involving quality therapy and body work such as Feldenkrais physical therapy. They should have followed these kids for 10 years. The above researchers lost 50% of the 53 who did continue to hormones and surgeries. The ones they found with the 800,000 Euro funding they got recently were found to "identify" differently from the opposite sex persona they had during the study. Lisa Mondegreen informed us that they decided a new term, "gender incongruity" was needed to handle that cohort.
Those who desist and go on to accept their physical, sexed body are going to be the source of the best practices. Great idea. I know there is a detransitioner in my town, and there will be more, because boys are now in the girls' locker room at the local high school, I've heard from an agitated dad. Best to figure out the careful survey questions and assure the desist cohort that they will not be "outed" or harassed or cancelled. What I've heard is that they don't like to talk about it, they feel they went through a delusion and they just want to move on. We'll never learn if we can't get them to open up.
Lisa, please, please also talk about how social transition and a blanket policy of only affirmation can cause real and lasting serious harms even if medicalization never happens and the child eventually desists.
This is a bit of a tangent, but....
I am the very last person in the world to believe that adolescents should make major, life-altering decisions about their lives. Thank goodness most of us did not have that power, I'm sure most will agree.
That said, I've always felt that American culture, broadly, is sorely lacking in rites of passages for all ages, but especially the passage from child>adolescent>adult. Yes, yes, I know, some religions (Judaism comes first to mind) do mark this passage, but few would argue that, say, Catholic or Episcopal confirmation is experienced by many kids (or adults) as particularly meaningful ... certainly not personal.
I've always thought communities should develop rites of passage for adolescents, and as part of those rites, any child can choose his/her own name (much as, say, a confirmation name is bestowed). Sure, we'd get a lot of absurd monikers (Atlas? Really?), but some kids might really put thought into this, particularly if the ritual became normalized over time. Some kids might choose their given name, while others might choose a "second name" that they use only with friends and family, while others might truly want to leave their "childhood name" behind and adopt a new one that is more meaningful to them.
Is that a crazy idea? I've thought about this for about (no joke) 50 years, and despite the possibility of some silliness, presumably caring adults might gently influence a kid's decision.
As a 7-year-old, I wanted to be Tony—the name of one of my best friends. I actually tried to make it happen, but no soap. But you know, as a 13-year-old, I was extremely well-read, romantic, artistic and full of wonder for the universe and everything in it. I might have come up with something pretty evocative, and satisfying (to me, at least), if given the chance.
At any rate, I do sometimes wonder if some adolescent angst (including trans mania) isn't at least *partially* connected to this culture's general lack of respect or acknowledgement for the passage from childhood to adolescence and adulthood.
Signed,
Starhawk (kidding)