Makes me want to cry that to be homosexual is still so difficult. We have come a long, long way in what is, in perspective, a short time. It is so joyful to be your authentic self. Please children-don't cut off your body parts because of homophobia. Seems like just another way of staying in the closet.
It has been decades getting equality and of course being L (GB) never required fake names, fraudulent pronouns or medicalization to be authentic. But at least there are still lesbians in the arts who are don't have internalized homophobia or misogyny and live authentically and courageously w/ integrity. I think Page is a sad case who apparently had a homophobic mother and a lot of misogynist men in the acting field to deal with and no one to help her do it. For her sake I hope she does no further damage to her body--there is no opting-out, only more damage and self-deceit.
I think that it's only similar on the very surface - Mulvaney has started to speak and behave like any other AGP, which makes sense when one comes to understand the addictive nature of receiving affirmation for the fetish. I don't think that there's truly a direct parallel for lesbians who attempt to "transition" but there does seem to be evidence that the straight women who fetishise gay men and take testosterone etc are driven by autoandrophilia and other paraphilia which could include autopaedophilia (relatively common in heterosexual "transitioning" men). That said, the entire trans movement *is* notable for its ageism in addition to it's misogyny and homophobia.
Oh yes. I understand that there is a big difference. Mulvaney appears as a wannabe using the number-of-days-of "girlhood" bit as an attraction, a brand, striving to be this years Audrey Hepburn or whatever. Page seems to be more like running from some of the horror criminally perpetrated on young women who have arrived in International stardom.
I had read another review of the book that had more about the abusive movie bis environment dominated by men. Typical of the continual testimonies of women hit on and raped by these power men. That review mentioned the director of Hard Candy, a movie I had access to but didn't want to see (I haven't seen Juno, or really any of her other work except The East a movie that I love and think is really really great. I liked the idea of her because of The East. It's about eco-activists that take direct action. Please see it if you can.)
Anyway, more to your comment, I had a relationship about 15 years ago with a published poet woman who is now a trans-man. This was a sweet woman, then in mid-30s and really emotionally troubled. We met on Facebook. She was a child of the super rich, from Christian rightwing Texas. She lived then in her parent's spanking new tower off white apartment Park Ave in the W 50th area. It was her parent's New York pad, they lived in a Carolina or somewhere else. She brought me there and it was all impressive. Although in NYC for years I'm still a wide-eyed working class Ohio boy in the big city. She was connected to all this stuff I had heard about. She went to Naropa University, had had a significant relationship with a much older poet-musician, a Beat Generation figure who died about 20 years ago. He 30 years older than I and I think I'm about 20 years older than she is.
ANYWAY. . . . .
After we stopped sexual stuff which seemed not at all out of the ordinary, we remained Facebook friends. She was a big FB person and one could track her psychology via her posts. She was constantly searching for an identity. She would pingpong back and forth from a longing for a life in a monastery even going to one of those places over the years trying to fit. She would bounce from that strange Christian stuff to posting lots of photos of thin young gay boys and through her I had learned the term "twink". She adored the looks and style of twinks. So she would cycle through this for years. Monks, twinks, back to monks, back to twinks. Round and round.
She was also rather into fashion and need up blocking me when I kinda of questioned of something some sneakers she bought that had wings on the back. I ofended her because of not understanding her love of these shoes.
Eventually I saw that she had transitioned with the little beard, I hope it works out for them being a 50 year old twink.
I don't actually know what to make of this story but I've maybe it is somehow relevant to what we are talking about here.
That *is* an interesting anecdote! I do think that it's very likely to be relevant here.
While I have heard of a handful of instances of women above the age of thirty deciding to "transition", I have never known one of them personally or even at one degree of remove. On the other hand, I've known quite a number of teenage girls and women in their early twenties who have started to identify as "transmasc" and proceeded to transition medically. My impression has been that the women who pursue it later in life have been suffering from far worse mental health issues than the majority of the younger cohort, which was only reinforced by the experience you relayed.
In my opinion, these women are betrayed by the professions who have bowed to the demands of the gender activists. For example - where I live general medical practitioners have no legal choice but to unquestioningly "affirm" and supply exogenous hormones to any patient (adult or minor) who declares themselves "trans", at least while they await an appointment at a gender clinic. Psychologists and Psychiatrists must affirm too, no matter what comorbidities may be at play. That leaves some mighty big cracks for individuals rendered vulnerable by mental illness and a lack of real world support to fall through.
One can only hope that they continue to enjoy the permanent changes made to their physiology and are fortunate enough to avoid the worst of the deleterious effects that testosterone often has on the female body as they age.
That seems to be the deal for some of the young transitioners. Are they aware that eventually they won't be either a boy or a girl, but an old man and a lady? We all grow up, and coming to terms with ageing and learning to be happy with your mature body is a whole other experience in itself. I'm concerned for some of the impulsive teens (entranced by all the pretty pics and posts on Tumblr and Instagram), once they realise that but have already gone through operations and irreversible hormonal therapy.
I think you nailed it with this essay. And when the tide turns and detransitioners become the new victims du jour, I’d place money that Elliot will come out once again, frustratingly late, and become the celebrity face of detransition.
If this story sells, it is because so many are in thrall to celebrity and skin-deep ideas of "hotness". As a parent, I have been told repeatedly (by other Moms!) that an "advantage" of a teen girl transitioning is that they can "look hot" as a boy. Those comments are supposed to provide comfort and encouragement to a skeptical, wavering Mom. That is alarming, to me, and very sad.
It may take a good, long while, and I suppose I won't be here to see it, but I'm fascinated pondering how all these "bois" and "guys" and "lads" are going to feel about being "men" when they reach paunchy, slumping, balding middle age. They can forestall much of it by continuing to work out, of course, but time will win in the end.
When I skimmed the preview chapters, all the references to clothing and social discomfort struck me as possible shades of autistic traits. Her clothing preferences sound as much about sensory complaints as femininity. (Reminds me of the infamous Transgender Hair Barrette Diagnosis.)
I grew up in the same city, a couple short years ahead of her. I did not experience nearly the same amount of homophobic hostility she purports to have experienced in our leftish university town. I hesitate to question someone's traumatic experiences, but I can't help wondering if she's got an amplified sense of persecution.
Does the memoir mention anything about her time at the Shambhala school?
"How does Page define her gender, precisely? The title of the memoir is "Pageboy," and she refers to herself throughout as a "boy" or "guy," not a “man.”"
Likewise, it seems many mtf don't want to be "women." They want to be hot girls for the rest of their lives. To paraphrase the adage, "You're a short time young, and a long, long time....not young." Our culture has forgotten how to convey the emptiness of vanity. Perhaps, a fool's errand when advertising would have us believe the opposite.
The identity itself seems to be pulled from a shelf, not developed from the deep wells of true character. The acting profession is designed to emphasize becoming someone that is actually not you.
Lots of subtle observations here. My impression of Ellen/Elliot Page is someone who desperately wants to escape unhappiness stemming from difficulties in her childhood, pressures from her career and the obvious issues related to being a gender non-conforming lesbian in the world she inhabits. She appears to be confused. She has described all of her experiences of being judged for her non-conformity (bullying when she was a teenager), of being prevented from living as she wished (e.g. all the times she couldn't dress as herself and all the years spent in the closet), and of her own internalized homophobia and body hatred (she didn't feel comfortable being a lesbian, particularly because it was not acceptable in her town and in her home and, to a lesser extent, in Hollywood, and waited until she was 27 to come out, and she also suffered the usual self-judgment of girls and women, amplified by her Hollywood status, exemplified by her anorexia). Then, after ruminating on the topic, and on herself, she has concluded that this all means she is "really male." It makes no sense to me. Her true authentic self should be her ability to live as a woman - a gender non-conforming lesbian woman - unapologetically. Think Billy Porter, but the female version. Porter is someone being himself - an effeminate male who doesn't deny being male and also doesn't pretend to be 100% feminine. He's a mix, like most of us, but just leans in the feminine direction, with a flare for fashion! Instead, Elliot's notion of her true authentic self is to mutilate her body and pretend to be male, so that she can wear the clothes she likes without judgment, and she can erase her painful past by inhabiting this "new" body. Of course, I could be wrong about all of this. I don't know her. It just seems this way from everything she said in her interviews.
The difference between a lesbian and transgender male?
I dare to say that lesbians learn to accept their invisible status in society and move forward in non-conforming ways. Assimilation with a bold defiance. No one really cares what lesbians do.
I don’t know why anyone searching for identity would come out as a lesbian… Far more conversations and attention right now with transgender issues.
I don’t think the guest post was helpful. The last thing lesbians need to do is try to filter transgendered issues through our homosexual experience.
I often say this jokingly, but when I read things like this, I think I mean it…” is it possible to go back in the closet and just have gay fun again?”
I’m with you, Fanny. I grew impatient reading this. The book appears to be just another bit of the rampant narcissistic navel-gazing that preoccupies all to many people these days. There is a big, wide world of major issues that we need to be addressing right now. Who Page is is not among them. Waste of time.
'Pageboy', it seems, subconsciously touches on all the issues of the trans movement: it's a way to run away from puberty (they don't want to be 'men and women,' they want to be 'boys and girls;' this can also be observed in the strange trans obsession with Peter Pan and Joan of Arc, who died before her 20s) and sexuality--specifically, homosexuality (furthering the idea that being gay is some disease).
Not only that, but it's interesting to me how this book continues to perpetuate the idea of 'gender joy.' Based on your description, it seems to skim over or omit certain aspects of 'transitioning,' things we have a rapidly growing body of evidence on, both academic and non-academic (i.e., the act of having to shove a needle into your thigh to inject T, the effects of hormones, the depression many girls face after 'top surgery,' etc.), making this book another dangerous piece of 'literature' in the trans world.
The omission of information has led so many girls and boys down this dangerous road, myself included. If I had known five years ago (when I started the so-called 'gender journey') that hormones could literally weaken your bones, I would have never succumbed to the ideology, and would have saved all the time, mental bandwidth, arguments, and tears that went into detransition.
TLDR: You just got another subscriber. Great article!
Elliot, like so many trans people seems stuck in perpetual adolescence... sullen, grievance filled and self absorbed. Could be the Hollywood thing-might be related.
I’m curious about lesbians that do this to themselves. It’s hard to make sense of it to me. Unless she plans to attract straight women who like the appearance of men and their parts, plus their male personas, why would a lesbian be attracted to a male looking female? It seems to be counter intuitive but what do I know, I’m only a straight woman.
If it weren’t for the testosterone making her smell differently, plenty of lesbians like me could enjoy her Ken doll aesthetic. Except the 5’1” thing takes away from that. But plenty of bi women are out there for the trans dudes 🤷🏻
This is probably a very stupid question, but if Page or any woman continues on testosterone, will she lose her hair eventually like men do? When you’re young you don’t spend a lot of time wondering what you’ll look like as old, but it sure does creep up on you. ;)
It can happen far sooner than "eventually", particularly if the woman or girl is on a higher dose. I know of a detransitioner who was suffering from significant balding by the age of 21. Exogenous testosterone seems to me to be truly poisonous to the female body, especially in higher doses.
From the research I have done the hair loss, if it happens, will be the least of her concerns. Testosterone affects various internal organs. Just some health issues for FtM include: "... testosterone, is associated with worsening cardiovascular risk factors, such as increased blood pressure, insulin resistance, and lipid derangements ..." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6616494/ But the truth is these interventions are experimental and the iatrogenic health problems are still being discovered.
I got to give it her, she nailed the look of a italian plumber far better than Mario.
With the freshness of youth gone her career was going nowhere on talent alone so she changed tracks and is now trying to make some money from the trans gravy train.
shes more like the character Salis in the di Vinci code. he was the follower of a priest and carried out crimes for the priest. like salis, page feels assailed by the gay community and her former self. to run from both she simply holds to a tether fixed to a cult and does the cults bidding
Makes me want to cry that to be homosexual is still so difficult. We have come a long, long way in what is, in perspective, a short time. It is so joyful to be your authentic self. Please children-don't cut off your body parts because of homophobia. Seems like just another way of staying in the closet.
It has been decades getting equality and of course being L (GB) never required fake names, fraudulent pronouns or medicalization to be authentic. But at least there are still lesbians in the arts who are don't have internalized homophobia or misogyny and live authentically and courageously w/ integrity. I think Page is a sad case who apparently had a homophobic mother and a lot of misogynist men in the acting field to deal with and no one to help her do it. For her sake I hope she does no further damage to her body--there is no opting-out, only more damage and self-deceit.
It is incredibly sad.
But why is this happening with women in their 30s, I wonder? To get more celebration and acceptance?
Maybe? I don't know really.
Interesting that Elliot "Boy" is a lot like with Dylan "girl".
I think that it's only similar on the very surface - Mulvaney has started to speak and behave like any other AGP, which makes sense when one comes to understand the addictive nature of receiving affirmation for the fetish. I don't think that there's truly a direct parallel for lesbians who attempt to "transition" but there does seem to be evidence that the straight women who fetishise gay men and take testosterone etc are driven by autoandrophilia and other paraphilia which could include autopaedophilia (relatively common in heterosexual "transitioning" men). That said, the entire trans movement *is* notable for its ageism in addition to it's misogyny and homophobia.
Oh yes. I understand that there is a big difference. Mulvaney appears as a wannabe using the number-of-days-of "girlhood" bit as an attraction, a brand, striving to be this years Audrey Hepburn or whatever. Page seems to be more like running from some of the horror criminally perpetrated on young women who have arrived in International stardom.
I had read another review of the book that had more about the abusive movie bis environment dominated by men. Typical of the continual testimonies of women hit on and raped by these power men. That review mentioned the director of Hard Candy, a movie I had access to but didn't want to see (I haven't seen Juno, or really any of her other work except The East a movie that I love and think is really really great. I liked the idea of her because of The East. It's about eco-activists that take direct action. Please see it if you can.)
Anyway, more to your comment, I had a relationship about 15 years ago with a published poet woman who is now a trans-man. This was a sweet woman, then in mid-30s and really emotionally troubled. We met on Facebook. She was a child of the super rich, from Christian rightwing Texas. She lived then in her parent's spanking new tower off white apartment Park Ave in the W 50th area. It was her parent's New York pad, they lived in a Carolina or somewhere else. She brought me there and it was all impressive. Although in NYC for years I'm still a wide-eyed working class Ohio boy in the big city. She was connected to all this stuff I had heard about. She went to Naropa University, had had a significant relationship with a much older poet-musician, a Beat Generation figure who died about 20 years ago. He 30 years older than I and I think I'm about 20 years older than she is.
ANYWAY. . . . .
After we stopped sexual stuff which seemed not at all out of the ordinary, we remained Facebook friends. She was a big FB person and one could track her psychology via her posts. She was constantly searching for an identity. She would pingpong back and forth from a longing for a life in a monastery even going to one of those places over the years trying to fit. She would bounce from that strange Christian stuff to posting lots of photos of thin young gay boys and through her I had learned the term "twink". She adored the looks and style of twinks. So she would cycle through this for years. Monks, twinks, back to monks, back to twinks. Round and round.
She was also rather into fashion and need up blocking me when I kinda of questioned of something some sneakers she bought that had wings on the back. I ofended her because of not understanding her love of these shoes.
Eventually I saw that she had transitioned with the little beard, I hope it works out for them being a 50 year old twink.
I don't actually know what to make of this story but I've maybe it is somehow relevant to what we are talking about here.
That *is* an interesting anecdote! I do think that it's very likely to be relevant here.
While I have heard of a handful of instances of women above the age of thirty deciding to "transition", I have never known one of them personally or even at one degree of remove. On the other hand, I've known quite a number of teenage girls and women in their early twenties who have started to identify as "transmasc" and proceeded to transition medically. My impression has been that the women who pursue it later in life have been suffering from far worse mental health issues than the majority of the younger cohort, which was only reinforced by the experience you relayed.
In my opinion, these women are betrayed by the professions who have bowed to the demands of the gender activists. For example - where I live general medical practitioners have no legal choice but to unquestioningly "affirm" and supply exogenous hormones to any patient (adult or minor) who declares themselves "trans", at least while they await an appointment at a gender clinic. Psychologists and Psychiatrists must affirm too, no matter what comorbidities may be at play. That leaves some mighty big cracks for individuals rendered vulnerable by mental illness and a lack of real world support to fall through.
One can only hope that they continue to enjoy the permanent changes made to their physiology and are fortunate enough to avoid the worst of the deleterious effects that testosterone often has on the female body as they age.
That seems to be the deal for some of the young transitioners. Are they aware that eventually they won't be either a boy or a girl, but an old man and a lady? We all grow up, and coming to terms with ageing and learning to be happy with your mature body is a whole other experience in itself. I'm concerned for some of the impulsive teens (entranced by all the pretty pics and posts on Tumblr and Instagram), once they realise that but have already gone through operations and irreversible hormonal therapy.
I think you nailed it with this essay. And when the tide turns and detransitioners become the new victims du jour, I’d place money that Elliot will come out once again, frustratingly late, and become the celebrity face of detransition.
If this story sells, it is because so many are in thrall to celebrity and skin-deep ideas of "hotness". As a parent, I have been told repeatedly (by other Moms!) that an "advantage" of a teen girl transitioning is that they can "look hot" as a boy. Those comments are supposed to provide comfort and encouragement to a skeptical, wavering Mom. That is alarming, to me, and very sad.
It's the reverse for women "turning" into men.
It may take a good, long while, and I suppose I won't be here to see it, but I'm fascinated pondering how all these "bois" and "guys" and "lads" are going to feel about being "men" when they reach paunchy, slumping, balding middle age. They can forestall much of it by continuing to work out, of course, but time will win in the end.
When I skimmed the preview chapters, all the references to clothing and social discomfort struck me as possible shades of autistic traits. Her clothing preferences sound as much about sensory complaints as femininity. (Reminds me of the infamous Transgender Hair Barrette Diagnosis.)
I grew up in the same city, a couple short years ahead of her. I did not experience nearly the same amount of homophobic hostility she purports to have experienced in our leftish university town. I hesitate to question someone's traumatic experiences, but I can't help wondering if she's got an amplified sense of persecution.
Does the memoir mention anything about her time at the Shambhala school?
Great points and questions.
"How does Page define her gender, precisely? The title of the memoir is "Pageboy," and she refers to herself throughout as a "boy" or "guy," not a “man.”"
Likewise, it seems many mtf don't want to be "women." They want to be hot girls for the rest of their lives. To paraphrase the adage, "You're a short time young, and a long, long time....not young." Our culture has forgotten how to convey the emptiness of vanity. Perhaps, a fool's errand when advertising would have us believe the opposite.
The identity itself seems to be pulled from a shelf, not developed from the deep wells of true character. The acting profession is designed to emphasize becoming someone that is actually not you.
Lots of subtle observations here. My impression of Ellen/Elliot Page is someone who desperately wants to escape unhappiness stemming from difficulties in her childhood, pressures from her career and the obvious issues related to being a gender non-conforming lesbian in the world she inhabits. She appears to be confused. She has described all of her experiences of being judged for her non-conformity (bullying when she was a teenager), of being prevented from living as she wished (e.g. all the times she couldn't dress as herself and all the years spent in the closet), and of her own internalized homophobia and body hatred (she didn't feel comfortable being a lesbian, particularly because it was not acceptable in her town and in her home and, to a lesser extent, in Hollywood, and waited until she was 27 to come out, and she also suffered the usual self-judgment of girls and women, amplified by her Hollywood status, exemplified by her anorexia). Then, after ruminating on the topic, and on herself, she has concluded that this all means she is "really male." It makes no sense to me. Her true authentic self should be her ability to live as a woman - a gender non-conforming lesbian woman - unapologetically. Think Billy Porter, but the female version. Porter is someone being himself - an effeminate male who doesn't deny being male and also doesn't pretend to be 100% feminine. He's a mix, like most of us, but just leans in the feminine direction, with a flare for fashion! Instead, Elliot's notion of her true authentic self is to mutilate her body and pretend to be male, so that she can wear the clothes she likes without judgment, and she can erase her painful past by inhabiting this "new" body. Of course, I could be wrong about all of this. I don't know her. It just seems this way from everything she said in her interviews.
The difference between a lesbian and transgender male?
I dare to say that lesbians learn to accept their invisible status in society and move forward in non-conforming ways. Assimilation with a bold defiance. No one really cares what lesbians do.
I don’t know why anyone searching for identity would come out as a lesbian… Far more conversations and attention right now with transgender issues.
I don’t think the guest post was helpful. The last thing lesbians need to do is try to filter transgendered issues through our homosexual experience.
I often say this jokingly, but when I read things like this, I think I mean it…” is it possible to go back in the closet and just have gay fun again?”
I’m with you, Fanny. I grew impatient reading this. The book appears to be just another bit of the rampant narcissistic navel-gazing that preoccupies all to many people these days. There is a big, wide world of major issues that we need to be addressing right now. Who Page is is not among them. Waste of time.
'Pageboy', it seems, subconsciously touches on all the issues of the trans movement: it's a way to run away from puberty (they don't want to be 'men and women,' they want to be 'boys and girls;' this can also be observed in the strange trans obsession with Peter Pan and Joan of Arc, who died before her 20s) and sexuality--specifically, homosexuality (furthering the idea that being gay is some disease).
Not only that, but it's interesting to me how this book continues to perpetuate the idea of 'gender joy.' Based on your description, it seems to skim over or omit certain aspects of 'transitioning,' things we have a rapidly growing body of evidence on, both academic and non-academic (i.e., the act of having to shove a needle into your thigh to inject T, the effects of hormones, the depression many girls face after 'top surgery,' etc.), making this book another dangerous piece of 'literature' in the trans world.
The omission of information has led so many girls and boys down this dangerous road, myself included. If I had known five years ago (when I started the so-called 'gender journey') that hormones could literally weaken your bones, I would have never succumbed to the ideology, and would have saved all the time, mental bandwidth, arguments, and tears that went into detransition.
TLDR: You just got another subscriber. Great article!
Elliot, like so many trans people seems stuck in perpetual adolescence... sullen, grievance filled and self absorbed. Could be the Hollywood thing-might be related.
I’m curious about lesbians that do this to themselves. It’s hard to make sense of it to me. Unless she plans to attract straight women who like the appearance of men and their parts, plus their male personas, why would a lesbian be attracted to a male looking female? It seems to be counter intuitive but what do I know, I’m only a straight woman.
If it weren’t for the testosterone making her smell differently, plenty of lesbians like me could enjoy her Ken doll aesthetic. Except the 5’1” thing takes away from that. But plenty of bi women are out there for the trans dudes 🤷🏻
Ok that makes more sense, the bi thing.
This is probably a very stupid question, but if Page or any woman continues on testosterone, will she lose her hair eventually like men do? When you’re young you don’t spend a lot of time wondering what you’ll look like as old, but it sure does creep up on you. ;)
Yes I think whatever the male pattern baldness runs in your family , you do. According to a nurse that spoke to my daughter and I about it.
Thank you. I never thought about it making them lose their hair eventually.
It can happen far sooner than "eventually", particularly if the woman or girl is on a higher dose. I know of a detransitioner who was suffering from significant balding by the age of 21. Exogenous testosterone seems to me to be truly poisonous to the female body, especially in higher doses.
From the research I have done the hair loss, if it happens, will be the least of her concerns. Testosterone affects various internal organs. Just some health issues for FtM include: "... testosterone, is associated with worsening cardiovascular risk factors, such as increased blood pressure, insulin resistance, and lipid derangements ..." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6616494/ But the truth is these interventions are experimental and the iatrogenic health problems are still being discovered.
Judging from the experience of the two FTM trans men I know, yes, trans men very likely will go bald.
I got to give it her, she nailed the look of a italian plumber far better than Mario.
With the freshness of youth gone her career was going nowhere on talent alone so she changed tracks and is now trying to make some money from the trans gravy train.
shes more like the character Salis in the di Vinci code. he was the follower of a priest and carried out crimes for the priest. like salis, page feels assailed by the gay community and her former self. to run from both she simply holds to a tether fixed to a cult and does the cults bidding
Thanks for this nuanced review. Great to hear comments from a level-headed lesbian!