Thanks for allowing these women to write, Lisa. What really got me was how they described the feeling lesbians have when they see other lesbians, the sense of kinship, the “knowing glance.” I feel like those days are over. So often when I see another butch lesbian I notice she no longer has breasts or I’m told her pronouns are they. I find it so sad. I just want to look away. That connection, at least for me, is gone.
Karen, thats heartbreaking to hear. But I know what you mean. I was a concert recently and turned around to see a young couple. They looked like a young boy and a girl, mid 20's maybe. But I knew, I felt they were lesbians and sure enough I looked at his chest and his shirt was open and there were the crescent moon red marks underneath his nipples.
I go back and forth about pronouns, I want to respect everyones journey, and I also see the verbal corruption that can and has ensued. I am currently rolling through the links you posted and appreciate your passion.
Not only is the article excellent, but also so many thoughtful comments! I have been thinking about this article a good bit and have a couple observations to share. First let me note that I write as a 70-something gay woman. (As a side not, for your amusement, I have always rejected the term “lesbian.” It seemed to me, from the get go, that men got prioritized by taking claim to the word gay, and we women got stuck with something that sounds like a dread disease. This is not, BTW, a criticism at all of those who embrace the term. It’s just my idiosyncratic take.)
But now on to why I write. I want folks to bear in mind that not only are “tomboys” and “butch lesbians” in danger of getting swept up in gender ideology, but also young girls who by no means stand out as gender-role non-conforming. As a young girl, I wasn’t good at sports, and I had very special friends who were both boys and girls. I loved my frilly taffeta-skirted party dress, and equally my plaid Bermuda shorts and T-shirts. The one thing I seemed to be clear on was that girls should be the ones to rule the world, and I acted on that premise to the extent I could, even as I entered adolescence and it became increasingly unpopular to do so. So, I wonder, these days, instead of just being seen as weird and running our high school literary magazine--would I have been told I was trans?
Also, on the subject of young girls and women being lured into double mastectomies: there are many out here, like me, who had to have that awful surgery because of breast cancer and chose, for varying reasons, not to put up with either surgical or other prosthetics. It makes me all the more horrified that any young girls and women might be led to think voluntarily disfiguring themselves is the answer to anything.
Anyway, just random thoughts. Great article, and bravas to the writers and to Lisa for inviting this guest post.
Wonderful essay! Brava to Reid and Michelle, two of my FAIR colleagues. I am a FAIR Senior Fellow and Advisory Board member. I am also a trans man who transitioned from "dyke to dude" at age 39 in 2005. I don't deny my femaleness. Nor do I embrace the contemporary ideology put forth by members of the global "trans community" that womanhood and manhood are identities one can feel their way into. I never claim to be male, but I do acknowledge living in the world being perceived as a man. I am grateful to have found a true community in FAIR and generously lend my time and talent for the purpose of spreading FAIR's message of "advancing civil rights and liberties for all Americans, and promoting a common culture based on fairness, understanding, and humanity."
I am so grateful for your commitment to FAIR Zander, it's an honor to work alongside you to advance civil liberties and promote a common culture based on fairness, understanding and our humanity.
I posted this article on my Facebook page and a good friend and a therapist (she considers herself nonbinary but I have a really hard time thinking of her as anything but a lesbian woman) responded with the following. Just for consideration. We don't agree but she is a truly wonderful person and I hope - over time - to come to some consensus with her.
Her perspective:
I agree we need a more nuanced perspective, but this isn't nuanced or balanced at all.
Anyone genuinely doing this work is not trying to turn tomboys into men. Tomboys aren’t trans. Practitioners know the difference between sexual orientation/sexual preference and gender identity and lots of people struggle with that. If people who were assigned female at birth turn out to be men that’s a lot different from being masculine or having typical male interests.
What happens when tomboys are no longer allowed to exist without the assumption that they have been born into the wrong body or something is inherently wrong with them? Instead of >>looking outwards towards a society that insists that turning ourselves into lifelong medical patients is the solution. We aren’t doing that. Saying that makes it seem like we are. It positions us as though we were.
It's true that there are folks on either side of this divided discussion who say extreme things. She speaks as though both groups were actual groups and had spokespeople for them.
"being told we are doing it wrong; being lesbian is inherently bigoted”
I don’t say things like that—but she positions me as if I do.
There are individuals whose voices get amplified, much like the right and the left have folks who say all sorts of things and people say liberals are this and conservatives are that.
One of the things folks don’t consider is there in no lesbian community anymore. There is a queer community. Because there is a little less homophobia and more openness it has changed the nature of coming out. That won’t change if trans people disappeared. What is true is that youth come out into the queer community not the lesbian community. Lesbians meet on the internet not in bars. Those days are gone.
This is my field. No one is trying to turn butch women or tomboys into trans men. Many of the doctors and therapists are lesbians and gay men. They don’t have an investment in getting rid of LGB folks.
I think many people are just trying to figure out how to be themselves and find space for themselves. When we were younger there wasn't a choice about transness to explore. Now there is and kids need adults to assist them in sorting this out in non triggered sorts of ways. We need to figure out how to make space for everyone to be who they are. We need to stop taking away people's choices-like taking away families rights to access medical care for trans kids.
The articles she cites are are interesting-they are the trans-women-are-men articles despite her talking here about tomboys. And yes its upsetting for those of us who know that trans women are women. That gender exists. And yes, it’s also true when you tell someone they don’t exist or aren’t who they say they are, they will at times act out aggressively. Trans women get tired of being called men—despite their identities, despite how hard they work to be included and seen. Doesn't excuse inappropriate behavior yet people feel provoked and turning the other cheek gets old.
The regret rate, and I am an expert in this—look me up-hell I am in wikipedia under detransition-—is very small. [see below for her article] Smaller than lasik surgery, lower than knee surgery regret, lower than prostate surgery regret—it gets distorted. Adults make medical decisions they regret daily. We don’t stop them from making decisions. Teenagers increasingly get cosmetic surgery and no one is screaming about that and frankly I think perhaps girls getting breast implants is a bigger deal. In 2019 8000 girls 13-18 got breast implants and we know there is breast implant disease -read about Danica Patrick. So what this article is is political across many dimensions. It’s not as simple as tomboys are transitioning to become men because they don’t know about being masculine lesbians. I'd welcome real discussion because this is really complicated and we all get polarized very quickly. It's hard to talk about. How do masculine lesbians reach out and provide support to younger women rather than taking away trans access to health care? How does the queer community heal this division? These are important. FAIR sounds like a reasonable organization but it's actually pretty knee jerk conservative. It's anti affirmative action in a very creepy way.
I'm writing an article about gender therapists and would love to quote her—please have her reach out to me. It's great she doesn't say things like being gay is bigoted, but it doesn't mean that other young people aren't learning that message. As for her assertion that she's an expert on detransition—if that's true, she knows that we truly have no idea what the rate is because we have no long-term data, especially on young people transitioned since the spike went way up in 2015. A recent, short-term study showed 7%, and some people say it can take about 8-10 years to fully realize it was the wrong choice—or the right choice!
Thanks for allowing these women to write, Lisa. What really got me was how they described the feeling lesbians have when they see other lesbians, the sense of kinship, the “knowing glance.” I feel like those days are over. So often when I see another butch lesbian I notice she no longer has breasts or I’m told her pronouns are they. I find it so sad. I just want to look away. That connection, at least for me, is gone.
Karen, thats heartbreaking to hear. But I know what you mean. I was a concert recently and turned around to see a young couple. They looked like a young boy and a girl, mid 20's maybe. But I knew, I felt they were lesbians and sure enough I looked at his chest and his shirt was open and there were the crescent moon red marks underneath his nipples.
I go back and forth about pronouns, I want to respect everyones journey, and I also see the verbal corruption that can and has ensued. I am currently rolling through the links you posted and appreciate your passion.
Wow. Pulitzer Prize level of writing. Thank you!!!!!!!
Beautifully written and something I could share with confused youth
Not only is the article excellent, but also so many thoughtful comments! I have been thinking about this article a good bit and have a couple observations to share. First let me note that I write as a 70-something gay woman. (As a side not, for your amusement, I have always rejected the term “lesbian.” It seemed to me, from the get go, that men got prioritized by taking claim to the word gay, and we women got stuck with something that sounds like a dread disease. This is not, BTW, a criticism at all of those who embrace the term. It’s just my idiosyncratic take.)
But now on to why I write. I want folks to bear in mind that not only are “tomboys” and “butch lesbians” in danger of getting swept up in gender ideology, but also young girls who by no means stand out as gender-role non-conforming. As a young girl, I wasn’t good at sports, and I had very special friends who were both boys and girls. I loved my frilly taffeta-skirted party dress, and equally my plaid Bermuda shorts and T-shirts. The one thing I seemed to be clear on was that girls should be the ones to rule the world, and I acted on that premise to the extent I could, even as I entered adolescence and it became increasingly unpopular to do so. So, I wonder, these days, instead of just being seen as weird and running our high school literary magazine--would I have been told I was trans?
Also, on the subject of young girls and women being lured into double mastectomies: there are many out here, like me, who had to have that awful surgery because of breast cancer and chose, for varying reasons, not to put up with either surgical or other prosthetics. It makes me all the more horrified that any young girls and women might be led to think voluntarily disfiguring themselves is the answer to anything.
Anyway, just random thoughts. Great article, and bravas to the writers and to Lisa for inviting this guest post.
Thank you for this woman-strong statement.
Wonderful essay! Brava to Reid and Michelle, two of my FAIR colleagues. I am a FAIR Senior Fellow and Advisory Board member. I am also a trans man who transitioned from "dyke to dude" at age 39 in 2005. I don't deny my femaleness. Nor do I embrace the contemporary ideology put forth by members of the global "trans community" that womanhood and manhood are identities one can feel their way into. I never claim to be male, but I do acknowledge living in the world being perceived as a man. I am grateful to have found a true community in FAIR and generously lend my time and talent for the purpose of spreading FAIR's message of "advancing civil rights and liberties for all Americans, and promoting a common culture based on fairness, understanding, and humanity."
I am so grateful for your commitment to FAIR Zander, it's an honor to work alongside you to advance civil liberties and promote a common culture based on fairness, understanding and our humanity.
Thank you so much Zander! It’s an honor to work alongside you, friend. 😊
Wow. What a gorgeous essay. Thank you so much.
"...standing with your own power, which eventually leads to becoming a stronger, more defiant woman."
Beautifully put.
Shannon I read Jon Kay's review of your book and I can't wait to read! Thank you for the kind words.
Awww, thank YOU!
What a beautiful, searing essay.
Thank you two. You are speaking for me (as I am sure Michelle knows)! Very well done.
🙏❤️
Great essay. Thank you!
Fantastic essay. Thank you for sharing this.
I posted this article on my Facebook page and a good friend and a therapist (she considers herself nonbinary but I have a really hard time thinking of her as anything but a lesbian woman) responded with the following. Just for consideration. We don't agree but she is a truly wonderful person and I hope - over time - to come to some consensus with her.
Her perspective:
I agree we need a more nuanced perspective, but this isn't nuanced or balanced at all.
Anyone genuinely doing this work is not trying to turn tomboys into men. Tomboys aren’t trans. Practitioners know the difference between sexual orientation/sexual preference and gender identity and lots of people struggle with that. If people who were assigned female at birth turn out to be men that’s a lot different from being masculine or having typical male interests.
What happens when tomboys are no longer allowed to exist without the assumption that they have been born into the wrong body or something is inherently wrong with them? Instead of >>looking outwards towards a society that insists that turning ourselves into lifelong medical patients is the solution. We aren’t doing that. Saying that makes it seem like we are. It positions us as though we were.
It's true that there are folks on either side of this divided discussion who say extreme things. She speaks as though both groups were actual groups and had spokespeople for them.
"being told we are doing it wrong; being lesbian is inherently bigoted”
I don’t say things like that—but she positions me as if I do.
There are individuals whose voices get amplified, much like the right and the left have folks who say all sorts of things and people say liberals are this and conservatives are that.
One of the things folks don’t consider is there in no lesbian community anymore. There is a queer community. Because there is a little less homophobia and more openness it has changed the nature of coming out. That won’t change if trans people disappeared. What is true is that youth come out into the queer community not the lesbian community. Lesbians meet on the internet not in bars. Those days are gone.
This is my field. No one is trying to turn butch women or tomboys into trans men. Many of the doctors and therapists are lesbians and gay men. They don’t have an investment in getting rid of LGB folks.
I think many people are just trying to figure out how to be themselves and find space for themselves. When we were younger there wasn't a choice about transness to explore. Now there is and kids need adults to assist them in sorting this out in non triggered sorts of ways. We need to figure out how to make space for everyone to be who they are. We need to stop taking away people's choices-like taking away families rights to access medical care for trans kids.
The articles she cites are are interesting-they are the trans-women-are-men articles despite her talking here about tomboys. And yes its upsetting for those of us who know that trans women are women. That gender exists. And yes, it’s also true when you tell someone they don’t exist or aren’t who they say they are, they will at times act out aggressively. Trans women get tired of being called men—despite their identities, despite how hard they work to be included and seen. Doesn't excuse inappropriate behavior yet people feel provoked and turning the other cheek gets old.
The regret rate, and I am an expert in this—look me up-hell I am in wikipedia under detransition-—is very small. [see below for her article] Smaller than lasik surgery, lower than knee surgery regret, lower than prostate surgery regret—it gets distorted. Adults make medical decisions they regret daily. We don’t stop them from making decisions. Teenagers increasingly get cosmetic surgery and no one is screaming about that and frankly I think perhaps girls getting breast implants is a bigger deal. In 2019 8000 girls 13-18 got breast implants and we know there is breast implant disease -read about Danica Patrick. So what this article is is political across many dimensions. It’s not as simple as tomboys are transitioning to become men because they don’t know about being masculine lesbians. I'd welcome real discussion because this is really complicated and we all get polarized very quickly. It's hard to talk about. How do masculine lesbians reach out and provide support to younger women rather than taking away trans access to health care? How does the queer community heal this division? These are important. FAIR sounds like a reasonable organization but it's actually pretty knee jerk conservative. It's anti affirmative action in a very creepy way.
Her de-transition link in Wikipedia: https://fenwayhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/Detransitioning-and-Retransitioning-graham-1.pdf
I'm writing an article about gender therapists and would love to quote her—please have her reach out to me. It's great she doesn't say things like being gay is bigoted, but it doesn't mean that other young people aren't learning that message. As for her assertion that she's an expert on detransition—if that's true, she knows that we truly have no idea what the rate is because we have no long-term data, especially on young people transitioned since the spike went way up in 2015. A recent, short-term study showed 7%, and some people say it can take about 8-10 years to fully realize it was the wrong choice—or the right choice!
I would prefer to answer privately. I put a friend request on Facebook so I can message you.
Thanks for posting this Robin I would love to speak with her and have this conversation I think this is what’s necessary for the community right now
I asked her; she hasn't answered. In the meantime, I would prefer to answer privately. I put a friend request on Facebook so I can message you.