Wow, Lisa. That is so powerful and you are on to something here. It's one thing for we parents to engage the doctors - who don't acknowledge our pain and concern. It's another when they are a cohort of the patients these doctors treat. And props to the brave man and women for doing that. I'm keeping them in my best thoughts and prayers.
I can imagine a person who has facilitated hundreds of adolescent and young adult transitions will be a very hard nut to crack. First, they would almost not be able to live with themselves if they really thought they were harming people. Secondly, the money they make requires them to keep doing what they are doing right now. I suspect it is lucrative. Lisa, it's great that you keep trying! You are a peacemaker. Things will change. I just hope they change fast enough for my 15 1/2 year old to not be part of the 2024/25 projections. You know those charts where they plot out transitions that have yet to occur...
So, so grateful to you for making this happen, and to the detransitioners for their courage and willingness to speak up. Lisa, just want you to know that your work continues to encourage me to do the small things I can, mostly in uncomfortable one-on-one exchanges. I had one such just today. I was tempted to let things lie, but decided against it--for what would Lisa do?
For anyone here who is interested: a very well-meaning physician friend told me about a Jon Stewart interview with the AG from Arkansas. I could tell from what she described, that, while I would not be on the side of the AG, I would be frustrated with Jon Stewart's position also. I thought about not asking for the link, so as to not get embroiled, but decided that was cowardice. Here's the Stewart interview, for those interested, together with my response, which I found really difficult to write, but again thought of Lisa's courage, so tried, anyway, and a link to information Lisa has provided on the Cass interim report:
I wrote to my friend: Yes, he demolished her on state intervention here, and he did it very calmly and politely. Very good job on his part. The sad thing, to me, as I’ve noted before, is that the right has got hold of this issue, and it makes it much harder for those of us on the left to raise and get heard real, serious concerns that exist with the standard of care in the US. Stewart doesn’t appear to have that information, unfortunately, so he errs from another direction—but the Arkansas person is too misguided to be able to enter into an intelligent discussion that raises those issues. The best voice I have seen so far in the US on this is Lisa Selin Davis. She is a progressive Democrat and mother of two school age children who lives in Brooklyn. Among others, I find it useful to follow her on Twitter to try and keep my mind from turning into a pretzel on these issues. Here, she shares a summary of the NHS Cass interim review of England’s gender services, to give you an idea of the areas of concern. The US gender services appear to have similar problems, and a Cass-style review is sorely needed, from what I have so far gleaned:
It will be the patients who turn the tide. And, the most powerful messages will come in the form of lawsuits. In my experience, nothing changes medical practice faster.
Of course! I can't believe I didn't think of that when reading the article. The doctors were scowling b/c in their minds their worst malpractice fantasies were playing out. Even if they were being persuaded or felt sympathetic, their minds were filled with fear. I've worked with mostly psychiatrists for over 30 years, and many of them were obsessed with the fear of being sued. (Maybe rightly so - but it often made treatment planning and coordination of care difficult.)
This is so important. If gender clinics are to continue into the future (after they have a reckoning with the actual science and lack of evidence for transitioning children) they really should have detransitioners talking to clicicians and kids at the clinics. Our young people deserve to know what could go wrong and that it's ok to not blindly follow the path set up for them.
You continue to inspire me Lisa and your tenacity gives me hope! Keep the fight! What an experience it must have been to witness this call. Thank you for your work💕
Lisa, your work remains astounding and inspiring. Changing hearts and minds when the near totality of the medical, psychological, political, and media establishment is promulgating this ideology is a big task. Unfortunately, I think lawsuits will be the driving force. Asking a 13-year-old if they ever want to have children makes no sense. I've worked with adolescents for nearly 30 years. It is not possible for a child that age to provide informed consent on such a fundamental issue.
Perhaps the work of Social Psychologist, Carol Tavris - author of Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me) (Third Edition): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts) - might be a useful way of making sense (even predicting) the likely response of these gender-affirming frauds . . .
Sorry for the rough language. I am feeling very cynical at the moment because I recently was made aware that yet another nut-job from the not-so-long-ago era of that medical scandal of "repressed memories" and "multiple personality disorder" (Ehrensaft) has persisted like a barnacle within this country's medical establishment to contribute to this latest quackery disaster of "affirmative care."
It is galling that we'll only get through this with some measure of papering over the harm done, fudging the truth, offering safe passage to butchers, parasites, frauds and sickos (who will be enabled, provided ways to persist as respectable "experts," poised to harm yet more vulnerable people in novel ways, as Ehrensaft has done), just as described by Ofshe & Watters in the book Making Monsters. https://thedistance.substack.com/p/diane-ehrensaft-satanic-panic-woo
I merely wish to impress upon you the gory realities of doing something that is fairly similar in principle to the process of mediation to restore peace in a country wracked by genocide . . . talk about "shadow work!" The faith required for this process is a humble profession of faith in the notion "There but for the grace of God [or random luck] go I."
If "forgiveness" and "healing" is the desired outcome of such a process, you need to de-prioritize justice . . . and to some extent, de-prioritize future safeguarding of yet more vulnerable people too. Because the vast majority of the perpetrators and enablers of the malpractice and ethical lapses that have been damaging, and will continue to damage, the psyches and bodies of our children (of course, my 18-year old is the reason for the burning anger and despair I feel) for many years to come, will be allowed to persist in their professions, with their respectability fully intact - at least as far as the general population is concerned.
Diane Ehrensaft, 'Satanic Panic' Woo Peddler, Now Champions the 'Gender Angels' Among Us
I use “M.” like the French do, for Monsieur but ALSO for Madam and Mademoiselle EQUALLY. That’s just me.
Thank You, M. Lisa Selin Davis. I'll add on one more comment exalting You for Your work. That can't be said enough. It also has to be "said" to all the detransitioners who participated. Your article showed a few ways they were impacted, and makes it easier to imagine what they went threw.
They, and really *all* detransitioners, deserve all the credit for being so brave. As well as You, M. Davis.
Hope You keep up the good work. Almost forgot to mention that I've enjoyed Your articles in Year Zero as well. I've seen a few in other outlets IIRC. TY again.
1/ This is personal for me - I and my spouse are trying to get a trans loved one to choose a path other than dangerous medicalization.
2/ Having said that - objectively speaking, it's about numbers. Despite my anger and grief at a social climate that suppresses evidence of the danger of medicalization, where detransition is concerned, for me it's about greater cost/benefits.
Simply: if I knew 1 in a million trans people detransitioned with regret, but medical transition had a) proven safe, and b) vastly improved the lives of the other 999.999,999 - both in the short- and long-term - it would not change my view that medical transition was a 'first line of intervention' social good justifying the extremely rare risks and regrets.
Wouldn't matter how tragic the individual case was - a wholly normative cost-benefit calculation would make me feel, 'That's terrible - but the benefits far outweigh the costs.
Just like with extremely rare severe reactions to vaccines.
BUUUT.....Thing is...far as I understand:
A) it's NOT 1 in a million - but a) even short of detransition, there are personal and social 'costs' that are either being missed or are being swept under the rug; and b) the 'detransition' %'s are far higher than has been understood or admitted.
(Ms. Davis - I could not find those 7-10% detransition studies #'s on yr Twitter link - this is terribly important, would you please share the studies, or references to them, on your website, or point to where you've posted them before!)
B) This much higher rate of transition medical problems, and detransition, is directly caused by a criminally negligent 'informed consent' model that gets people to consent by a) rejecting anything except what an individual feels as relevant to their decision, and b) refuses to engage with the mounting evidence of the dangers of medicalization and the % of regret.
Upshot: Their stories are 1 in a million? That's horrible. Their stories are _____ % (everyone will have a different number)? That's criminal. What is the %? Dunno - but it's looking increasingly like the second.
There is no good data on how many detransitioners (or regretters) there are or have been in most countries, including in countries with centralized medical systems, like Sweden.
A Swedish Investigative Journalist Talks About The Youth Gender Medicine Scandal She Helped Uncover At One Of The World's Top Hospitals
Carolina Jemsby: "It's so important for the healthcare workers in this field to not become activists."
interview on Jesse Singal's substack "Singal-Minded"
"There is no good data on how many detransitioners (or regretters) there are"
Walp, that may be. But...
...Ms. Davis's comment on a "researcher" who "studies detransition" referring to "recent studies" that "show a specific % "detransition rate" - and going so far as to distinguish 'non-regret'-type transition as a subtype...
...well that sounded to me like actual, bonafide social science research...not back of a paper napkin guess-timates...so I was hoping to learn more:
"A recent tweet from a trans man and researcher who studies detransition notes that recent studies show a 7 to 10 percent detransition rate (not all due to regret)."
Occurs to me that, w/yr 'clout' as a concerned commentator, the researcher would be likely to respond to a direct query from you, asking for links to the studies in question...vs. yr independently hunting for them...thx again...
Thank you so much for doing the job that I (and I suspect the vast majority of parents watching what is happening to their kids) cannot easily stomach . . . even as I know how necessary peacemaking is for society's future.
appreciated...can't have someone like me citing a study that falls apart on inspection, injuring both my claims, and my claims to fairminded-ness...'specially when low quality research is one of my declared, 'concerned folks' concerns...
In very selfish way, I catch myself wishing the numbers of detransitioners to be high - so high that the wrongness of transgender "medicine" becomes so obvious a horror to the most disengaged-with-the-news people, that this macabre experiment will be prematurely ended . . . And that is a big red flag for me to be super skeptical of any numbers being produced to support "my side" right now . . . I don't want to build my case against the healthcare choices my daughter is busy making right now to have a foundation of the same sort of pseudoscience and hysteria, as I believe her justifications for getting herself hooked on T are based on.
In the long run, I have to put my faith that the truth will out . . . maybe not in time to save my own child from seriously harming her health. But the stubborn persistence of material reality is the crucial force that fuels that "wisdom of crowds," which I suspect will evolve out of this particular period of history in time. The question is how long today's powerful tech will enable the current batch of "elite" interest groups feeding off this travesty to keep their thumb on the scale, and prevent an accurate reading. Censorious regimes of the past, like those headed by charismatic figures like Stalin, Mao, Chávez, etc., all managed to hold onto power and distort perceptions of millions well beyond the lifespans of the unlucky millions that their narrative killed and maimed, even without social media, billionaire zealots, and the warped incentives established by means of today's bad law and zombified international corporations.
Funny how, it is possible to maintain this delusion of transcendence I'm engaging in here, which allows me to imagine how history will go long after I'm snuffed out - to imagine that all will be right with the world eventually, even as, individually, I am watching all that I personally hold dear in my own life be destroyed . . . by memes and YouTube videos and my daughter's natural yearning for a tribe of her own. I've always found the stories told by astronomers, predicting the inevitable end of our sun and the snuffing out of galaxies, to be profoundly depressing . . . and theories of the evolution of human cultures, how they "learn" countless lessons "the hard way" feels very similar.
Wow, Lisa. That is so powerful and you are on to something here. It's one thing for we parents to engage the doctors - who don't acknowledge our pain and concern. It's another when they are a cohort of the patients these doctors treat. And props to the brave man and women for doing that. I'm keeping them in my best thoughts and prayers.
Lisa you are a force for good. A force for clarity and compassion and for furthering these critical discussions.
I can imagine a person who has facilitated hundreds of adolescent and young adult transitions will be a very hard nut to crack. First, they would almost not be able to live with themselves if they really thought they were harming people. Secondly, the money they make requires them to keep doing what they are doing right now. I suspect it is lucrative. Lisa, it's great that you keep trying! You are a peacemaker. Things will change. I just hope they change fast enough for my 15 1/2 year old to not be part of the 2024/25 projections. You know those charts where they plot out transitions that have yet to occur...
So, so grateful to you for making this happen, and to the detransitioners for their courage and willingness to speak up. Lisa, just want you to know that your work continues to encourage me to do the small things I can, mostly in uncomfortable one-on-one exchanges. I had one such just today. I was tempted to let things lie, but decided against it--for what would Lisa do?
For anyone here who is interested: a very well-meaning physician friend told me about a Jon Stewart interview with the AG from Arkansas. I could tell from what she described, that, while I would not be on the side of the AG, I would be frustrated with Jon Stewart's position also. I thought about not asking for the link, so as to not get embroiled, but decided that was cowardice. Here's the Stewart interview, for those interested, together with my response, which I found really difficult to write, but again thought of Lisa's courage, so tried, anyway, and a link to information Lisa has provided on the Cass interim report:
https://twitter.com/theproblem/status/1578414849083654144?s=10&t=DUKoIovXTiQJqyNEH2LjCA
I wrote to my friend: Yes, he demolished her on state intervention here, and he did it very calmly and politely. Very good job on his part. The sad thing, to me, as I’ve noted before, is that the right has got hold of this issue, and it makes it much harder for those of us on the left to raise and get heard real, serious concerns that exist with the standard of care in the US. Stewart doesn’t appear to have that information, unfortunately, so he errs from another direction—but the Arkansas person is too misguided to be able to enter into an intelligent discussion that raises those issues. The best voice I have seen so far in the US on this is Lisa Selin Davis. She is a progressive Democrat and mother of two school age children who lives in Brooklyn. Among others, I find it useful to follow her on Twitter to try and keep my mind from turning into a pretzel on these issues. Here, she shares a summary of the NHS Cass interim review of England’s gender services, to give you an idea of the areas of concern. The US gender services appear to have similar problems, and a Cass-style review is sorely needed, from what I have so far gleaned:
https://twitter.com/LisaSelinDavis/status/1502025162169982977
I'm so happy you did this! And you did it very well.
I think that’s a great, evenhanded, thoughtful response to your friend.
It will be the patients who turn the tide. And, the most powerful messages will come in the form of lawsuits. In my experience, nothing changes medical practice faster.
Of course! I can't believe I didn't think of that when reading the article. The doctors were scowling b/c in their minds their worst malpractice fantasies were playing out. Even if they were being persuaded or felt sympathetic, their minds were filled with fear. I've worked with mostly psychiatrists for over 30 years, and many of them were obsessed with the fear of being sued. (Maybe rightly so - but it often made treatment planning and coordination of care difficult.)
And what an great idea to start this dialogue.
It’s a matter of time. It will happen. So much harm has occurred.
This is so important. If gender clinics are to continue into the future (after they have a reckoning with the actual science and lack of evidence for transitioning children) they really should have detransitioners talking to clicicians and kids at the clinics. Our young people deserve to know what could go wrong and that it's ok to not blindly follow the path set up for them.
You continue to inspire me Lisa and your tenacity gives me hope! Keep the fight! What an experience it must have been to witness this call. Thank you for your work💕
This is amazing and wonderful work. I’m proud to support your work (as much as I can.)
Lisa, your work remains astounding and inspiring. Changing hearts and minds when the near totality of the medical, psychological, political, and media establishment is promulgating this ideology is a big task. Unfortunately, I think lawsuits will be the driving force. Asking a 13-year-old if they ever want to have children makes no sense. I've worked with adolescents for nearly 30 years. It is not possible for a child that age to provide informed consent on such a fundamental issue.
This is exactly the kind of work we need to help create the kind of change that’s needed. Thank you
Perhaps the work of Social Psychologist, Carol Tavris - author of Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me) (Third Edition): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts) - might be a useful way of making sense (even predicting) the likely response of these gender-affirming frauds . . .
Sorry for the rough language. I am feeling very cynical at the moment because I recently was made aware that yet another nut-job from the not-so-long-ago era of that medical scandal of "repressed memories" and "multiple personality disorder" (Ehrensaft) has persisted like a barnacle within this country's medical establishment to contribute to this latest quackery disaster of "affirmative care."
It is galling that we'll only get through this with some measure of papering over the harm done, fudging the truth, offering safe passage to butchers, parasites, frauds and sickos (who will be enabled, provided ways to persist as respectable "experts," poised to harm yet more vulnerable people in novel ways, as Ehrensaft has done), just as described by Ofshe & Watters in the book Making Monsters. https://thedistance.substack.com/p/diane-ehrensaft-satanic-panic-woo
I merely wish to impress upon you the gory realities of doing something that is fairly similar in principle to the process of mediation to restore peace in a country wracked by genocide . . . talk about "shadow work!" The faith required for this process is a humble profession of faith in the notion "There but for the grace of God [or random luck] go I."
If "forgiveness" and "healing" is the desired outcome of such a process, you need to de-prioritize justice . . . and to some extent, de-prioritize future safeguarding of yet more vulnerable people too. Because the vast majority of the perpetrators and enablers of the malpractice and ethical lapses that have been damaging, and will continue to damage, the psyches and bodies of our children (of course, my 18-year old is the reason for the burning anger and despair I feel) for many years to come, will be allowed to persist in their professions, with their respectability fully intact - at least as far as the general population is concerned.
Diane Ehrensaft, 'Satanic Panic' Woo Peddler, Now Champions the 'Gender Angels' Among Us
https://thedistance.substack.com/p/diane-ehrensaft-satanic-panic-woo
Hard work. Thx you
Thank you so, so, so much for your passion and hard work.
Tragic. So very tragic.
I use “M.” like the French do, for Monsieur but ALSO for Madam and Mademoiselle EQUALLY. That’s just me.
Thank You, M. Lisa Selin Davis. I'll add on one more comment exalting You for Your work. That can't be said enough. It also has to be "said" to all the detransitioners who participated. Your article showed a few ways they were impacted, and makes it easier to imagine what they went threw.
They, and really *all* detransitioners, deserve all the credit for being so brave. As well as You, M. Davis.
Hope You keep up the good work. Almost forgot to mention that I've enjoyed Your articles in Year Zero as well. I've seen a few in other outlets IIRC. TY again.
1/ This is personal for me - I and my spouse are trying to get a trans loved one to choose a path other than dangerous medicalization.
2/ Having said that - objectively speaking, it's about numbers. Despite my anger and grief at a social climate that suppresses evidence of the danger of medicalization, where detransition is concerned, for me it's about greater cost/benefits.
Simply: if I knew 1 in a million trans people detransitioned with regret, but medical transition had a) proven safe, and b) vastly improved the lives of the other 999.999,999 - both in the short- and long-term - it would not change my view that medical transition was a 'first line of intervention' social good justifying the extremely rare risks and regrets.
Wouldn't matter how tragic the individual case was - a wholly normative cost-benefit calculation would make me feel, 'That's terrible - but the benefits far outweigh the costs.
Just like with extremely rare severe reactions to vaccines.
BUUUT.....Thing is...far as I understand:
A) it's NOT 1 in a million - but a) even short of detransition, there are personal and social 'costs' that are either being missed or are being swept under the rug; and b) the 'detransition' %'s are far higher than has been understood or admitted.
(Ms. Davis - I could not find those 7-10% detransition studies #'s on yr Twitter link - this is terribly important, would you please share the studies, or references to them, on your website, or point to where you've posted them before!)
B) This much higher rate of transition medical problems, and detransition, is directly caused by a criminally negligent 'informed consent' model that gets people to consent by a) rejecting anything except what an individual feels as relevant to their decision, and b) refuses to engage with the mounting evidence of the dangers of medicalization and the % of regret.
Upshot: Their stories are 1 in a million? That's horrible. Their stories are _____ % (everyone will have a different number)? That's criminal. What is the %? Dunno - but it's looking increasingly like the second.
There is no good data on how many detransitioners (or regretters) there are or have been in most countries, including in countries with centralized medical systems, like Sweden.
A Swedish Investigative Journalist Talks About The Youth Gender Medicine Scandal She Helped Uncover At One Of The World's Top Hospitals
Carolina Jemsby: "It's so important for the healthcare workers in this field to not become activists."
interview on Jesse Singal's substack "Singal-Minded"
https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/a-swedish-investigative-journalist-dd6
It appears that some detransitioner support organizations are try to gather together data themselves . . . https://detranscount.wixsite.com/website
"There is no good data on how many detransitioners (or regretters) there are"
Walp, that may be. But...
...Ms. Davis's comment on a "researcher" who "studies detransition" referring to "recent studies" that "show a specific % "detransition rate" - and going so far as to distinguish 'non-regret'-type transition as a subtype...
...well that sounded to me like actual, bonafide social science research...not back of a paper napkin guess-timates...so I was hoping to learn more:
"A recent tweet from a trans man and researcher who studies detransition notes that recent studies show a 7 to 10 percent detransition rate (not all due to regret)."
Here's the 7% detransition/regret rate: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-open/article/access-to-care-and-frequency-of-detransition-among-a-cohort-discharged-by-a-uk-national-adult-gender-identity-clinic-retrospective-casenote-review/3F5AC1315A49813922AAD76D9E28F5CB
But I haven't found the 10%. Will add when I do!
"haven't found the 10%. Will add when I do!"
Occurs to me that, w/yr 'clout' as a concerned commentator, the researcher would be likely to respond to a direct query from you, asking for links to the studies in question...vs. yr independently hunting for them...thx again...
Yes, I already reached out. However, the 13% is a study I don't trust, so I'll remove that.
Thank you so much for doing the job that I (and I suspect the vast majority of parents watching what is happening to their kids) cannot easily stomach . . . even as I know how necessary peacemaking is for society's future.
appreciated...can't have someone like me citing a study that falls apart on inspection, injuring both my claims, and my claims to fairminded-ness...'specially when low quality research is one of my declared, 'concerned folks' concerns...
Thank you.
In very selfish way, I catch myself wishing the numbers of detransitioners to be high - so high that the wrongness of transgender "medicine" becomes so obvious a horror to the most disengaged-with-the-news people, that this macabre experiment will be prematurely ended . . . And that is a big red flag for me to be super skeptical of any numbers being produced to support "my side" right now . . . I don't want to build my case against the healthcare choices my daughter is busy making right now to have a foundation of the same sort of pseudoscience and hysteria, as I believe her justifications for getting herself hooked on T are based on.
In the long run, I have to put my faith that the truth will out . . . maybe not in time to save my own child from seriously harming her health. But the stubborn persistence of material reality is the crucial force that fuels that "wisdom of crowds," which I suspect will evolve out of this particular period of history in time. The question is how long today's powerful tech will enable the current batch of "elite" interest groups feeding off this travesty to keep their thumb on the scale, and prevent an accurate reading. Censorious regimes of the past, like those headed by charismatic figures like Stalin, Mao, Chávez, etc., all managed to hold onto power and distort perceptions of millions well beyond the lifespans of the unlucky millions that their narrative killed and maimed, even without social media, billionaire zealots, and the warped incentives established by means of today's bad law and zombified international corporations.
Funny how, it is possible to maintain this delusion of transcendence I'm engaging in here, which allows me to imagine how history will go long after I'm snuffed out - to imagine that all will be right with the world eventually, even as, individually, I am watching all that I personally hold dear in my own life be destroyed . . . by memes and YouTube videos and my daughter's natural yearning for a tribe of her own. I've always found the stories told by astronomers, predicting the inevitable end of our sun and the snuffing out of galaxies, to be profoundly depressing . . . and theories of the evolution of human cultures, how they "learn" countless lessons "the hard way" feels very similar.