“Dysphoria is in the brain. If you’re skipping over the brain and going straight to the body, you’re not helping trans people.”
I have oddly kept up with Buck over the years (thought he seemed very level headed and sincere). When I noticed the pivot from “transsexual” to “transgender” in society, his story and reaction to the current zeitgeist of this issue was something I kept an eye on.
I deeply appreciate someone like him speaking up on this issue in a time like this. One only hopes mainstream media takes note - it could help save a lot of grief in this nation.
"When it comes to gender dysphoria, talk therapy is more important than anything else." A crucial question is how do we keep this treatment from being labeled as "conversion therapy"? The activists know that by using this term they are winning over most progressives, who are aware of harmful attempts to "pray away the gay." How do we make sure that children get the thorough evaluations and counseling that they need—real "time to think"—when trans activists control the narrative so successfully?
It's really important that we differentiate between conversion therapy and exploring the source of GD—it really needs some work and attention, and I think GETA, CTA and other newer groups can and should put some effort there. And may be! In a couple of weeks I'm publishing something about that—just have to finish it!
That's definitely starting to happen, and, sadly, that's what it takes for change in this country. So I think in the next year a lot is going to happen.
This is actually part of the problem, and I will repeat again to Lisa Selin Davis, just read my book. You told me you received my review copy and it sits by your night table in the pile. I am a trans widow. I saw and experienced by (now) ex-husband's body dysphoria. Instead of reacting to what I say like the typical liberal parents of my Kindergarten students, saying a generalism, "she doesn't want me to platform trans" how about you read my memoir and recognize the attack on the family that the diagnosing "sexologist" (diagnosis in first meeting, July, 1993) engaged in. In a sworn affidavit in court, accusing me of 'forcing' my husband to 'decide to live full-time as a woman' because i refused his sex role play demands and asked for divorce. Like I said read my memoir, which I sent to you for no charge, before you accuse me of saying what I actually never said. And, soooorry, but Buck Angel stated publicly that she smokes a lot of pot and publicly stated that she also drives a school bus. Soorry. But . . .
Buck Angel is a producer of pornography and sells "lube" and other sex accoutrements on her platform. Earlier in life, she influenced many San Francisco butch lesbians to "transition." Lesbian bars disappeared, as men ideating a female persona started claiming to be lesbians. Working as a school bus driver, it is difficult to imagine Buck was not influencing the students. She appeared on the Howard Stern show and rode on a mechanical dildo in a state of undress in a public display. Buck is pulling the fleece over on the gender critical camp; if they take the bait and start believing this is an individual who will help children. I personally heard Buck on an interview a couple of years ago, conjecturing that a young woman entering Buck's porn world wouldn't have to be concerned about going to college. Please do your homework, it is all out there on the web.
Ute, thank you for sounding these cautionary notes. (And you are right, as I just confirmed, it doesn’t take much to uncover red flags here.) There are so many sincere, intelligent, eloquent transexuals who can speak to these issues that I have to say I am disappointed Angel was given this platform that I have come to trust so much, rather than someone without these serious problems. At the very least Angel needed to address the issues you note as part of this post. As we all know, this is a fraught subject, and it is incumbent on all of us who wish to persuade others that the concerns we have are valid not to put forth as a credible, trustworthy spokesperson anyone can be so easily, and I think validly, discredited.
Lisa, I hate to say this, but so as not to discredit your own incredibly valuable platform, unless Angel can rehabilitate himself vis-a-vis the points Ute is raising, I think this post ought to be taken down.
Buck admits *in this piece* that he's an adult film star. I couldn't care if sells lube (why would anyone?) or other sex products, or rides a mechanical dildo on Howard Stern, which I don't listen to or watch. I don't like porn so I don't watch it, and you don't have to, either. He's very open about the physical problems with transitioning and has educated others about testosterone's effects on the body. Ute's objections are hers to have—since she has expressed in private emails to me that she no longer supports my work, I'm not sure why she's here. She does not want me to platform trans people, but that's a huge part of what I'm doing—trying to help diversify the trans voices in the media.
Hi, Lisa: I very much appreciate your forthright response, and also I applaud your efforts to platform trans people as part of the Team Complexity mission. I believe it to be essential, and I am grateful to you for undertaking that. I have learned a lot, and it has helped me enormously in discussing this with others. In this case, though I am no porn fan, I am actually less concerned about the porn aspect than this: “Earlier in life, she influenced many San Francisco butch lesbians to "transition." Lesbian bars disappeared, as men ideating a female persona started claiming to be lesbians.” Is this something Angel has addressed? If so, I would be grateful for a link so I can hear/read directly what Angel says about this. Part of my concern is that I have, and would like to continue, to share this post as an example of how so many trans folks are not on board with gender ideology and why, which I think Angel does articulate very clearly. If what I quote from Ute is inaccurate, I would be relieved, and it will also help me be better armed when I talk with folks about what Angel is saying, should they contest Angel’s credibility. I want also to apologize to you if I have jumped the gun here. It is so easy to fall into potholes!
Makes sense, absolutely, Susan! Mostly I'm addressing what Ute raised, little of which concerns me. Buck is not single-handedly responsible for the disappearance of lesbian bars. I spent a lot of time in them in the 90s; they're not here anymore, either. I don't know if he actively tried to get other women to transition, but it's worth asking him about, and I don't mind doing so. Even if he did, it wouldn't invalidate his op-ed, or what he's doing now. It would be one of his many stories of making mistakes in life. I did so many wrong things in my life, but none of that, I hope, takes away from what I'm doing now. Taking a post down is a form of cancellation, of holding people to impossible standards of moral purity. I want us as a culture to move away from that. You can like Buck's ideas and not like Buck. I happen to like him, but then again, I'm willing to commune with lots of other people. But the truth is, I'm very sensitive and when someone decides that I'm a bad person and a bad journalist, and has a super narrow range of normal, I can't really spend much time engaging. I'm in it for reform and for shifting the zeitgeist. That requires a broad tent.
Lisa, thank you so much. It means so much that you engage with all of this the way you do. I am interested in what Angel might say, but it also occurred to me, too, on reflection, that “even if he did, it wouldn't invalidate his op-ed, or what he's doing now. It would be one of his many stories of making mistakes in life. I did so many wrong things in my life, but none of that, I hope, takes away from what I'm doing now.” Let it be known that I did, too--and indeed still do, an object lesson for me of which is jumping the gun here, eg! This whole discussion has offered me yet another valuable lesson, all thanks to you--and now I have a better idea of how to talk about all this should I get similar pushback when pointing folks to this post.
Susan, the disappearance of lesbian bars has to do with lesbians, there have never been a lot of lesbian bars to begin with. We are women and as such have different needs than biological men, in particular gay men, we nest and nurture as soon as we can. We find , wine and dine then call for the Uhaul. In Philadelphia there was one lesbian bar growing up, Hepburns and it eventually closed down. Then Sisters opened up, and I hear that eventually shut down. In Los Angeles there is NO lesbian bars, but there are thousands of Lesbians. Buck is not responsible for changing anyone but himself
Hey, Michelle: thanks for weighing in. as an “L” myself, I don’t have a strong opinion about this, but would only say there are a lot of different theories about the reasons behind the disappearance of the bars and also the increasing disappearance of any semblance of an L community, generally. In that regard, I am gratified by, and will be looking to, the Lesbian Project newly formed in the UK by Julie Bindel and Kathleen Stock for development of more information and for lifting up the concerns and needs of Ls, whatever they may be. However this all started out today, I think we ended up having a really good, nuanced discussion that looked at the issues initially raised from a variety of perspectives. I am all the more grateful to Lisa for providing such thought provoking posts and a place where we can gather to have such rich and open-ended conversations. That opportunity is rare indeed in this polarized environment.
I would actually go beyond saying that Lisa is doing great (with which I totally agree), to say, as I reflected on this whole discussion this morning, that what Lisa has provided here, and modeled herself, is a safe space in which we can learn together how to grapple with thorny problems, make room for disagreements, listen to a variety of points of view, and seek a way forward, together. Lisa’s Substack is the only place of which I am aware (though others may have examples, of course), that does not have the tendency to devolve down into an echo chamber. Yesterday’s discussion seemed to me a sterling example of this, and it is Lisa’s approach that makes it possible. Brava, Lisa, and I look forward to the next installment!
Man. I am not encouraged by what appears to me to be an extreme anti-sex moral panic marching forth from both the far left and far right.
It is reasonable to criticize the nuttiest aspects of the trans-activist agenda. It is reasonable to question and criticize pornography. It is reasonable to call people to account for unacceptable sexual behavior (i.e. manipulation or coercion).
But some people seem to have been so hurt, or are so poisoned by religious nonsense, that they are seriously seeking to drive American sexual freedom off a cliff.
Know what? If someone didn't actual force a person into a sexual activity, the person involved ***must*** take responsibility for his or her own actions. It will not do for people to say, "I was afraid to say 'no'" or whatever. There are obviously horrific and terrible situations in which bad actors coerce or deceitfully (illegally) manipulate others into sexual activity. But those cases are the exception. People need to stop pretending that they can escape from personal responsibility by saying they were uncomfortable, or didn't "think" they could say no. Could you physically say no, without endangering yourself? Then you should have said no if you did not want to participate.
Really, America? Shall we try to push sexual freedom back under the ground? Would you, judgers and scolders, like to have ***your*** particular proclivities, whether "vanilla" or not, scrutinized and judged "bad"?
The trans diagnosis is by no means supported by the science, as demonstrated by the multiple expert witness testimonies from Dr. Stephen B. Levine, very easily accessed by an online search. "She does not want me to platform trans people?" Does Buck talk about this? the very sketchy "research" of the Dutch Protocols: 70 subjects, then suddenly 55 subjects, no explanations. Then 2 died. So, 53 subjects. Then we find out that the exit interviews were quite sketchy, not the same as the entry interviews. So, Ute's personal experience matches the sketchy science? Ute's story about a "therapist" relaying a demand of my husband that I pretend to "be a man" in bed to "satisfy" his desire to "be a woman" is something you diminish in this way? Really? Do you call yourself a feminist? I do not. You are influenced, brainwashed and indoctrinated by the "Gender Unicorn" which I say teachers should refuse to let into their classrooms. While I'd appreciate if you'd recognize I paid to even write one word here, while anyone can come on uteheggengrasswidow.wordpress.com and submit a comment for free and comment for free on my youtube channel, this is what you will live with, what your children will live with, if you continue to ignore science. The world in which White, upper middle class liberals have allowed this ideology, not supported by science, now rejected by Norway, Sweden, Finland and the UK, will live to see the violence of "Trans Day of Vengeance, Los Angeles" which happened, and rethink their values. It is not about "being angry" or "not liking" you. Just read my book already.
The best resource is the Dr. Stephen B. Levine expert witness testimony, in which he tells his journey from "affirming" psychiatrist to challenging the entire diagnosis. The rest is pure narcissism, and Miss Angel has an extreme case of it.
This is a really excellent article. I want to commend Buck for his courage and nuance on this topic. There’s a couple of points I want to push back on though: I think Buck’s perspective, which some might call “trans-medical” and which is shared by many trans people who are older and therefore sought therapy during a time when there was more appropriate medical safeguarding for transition, often fail to address the issue of trans people who go through all the appropriate therapy, guidance, test-run of social transition, but after it all don’t pass. Blaire White’s perspective also has this issue imo. It’s all well and good to say “I got proper care and so my transition is successful” but it seems like a LOT of what makes a transition a success is whether people buy it. Buck looks like a man in daily interactions, so it “works” for him, and for society. But what about if Buck didn’t pass? This issue is under discussed, imo. I have been calling Buck “he” bc he LOOKS male. The issue is that almost all trans women, and many trans men, DONT pass, and therefore requires constant effort to address with correct pronouns. These people expect and request a suspension of disbelief from others around them which crosses the line of controlling other people’s behavior, thoughts, and feelings. It’s an inappropriate imposition on people imo. So how does that work? According to Buck, should psychologists just recommend that basically no males transition, and that especially petite/small females don’t transition? What does the mental health of a trans person who has received comprehensive care but don’t pass look like?
Another qualm: “I did something even more radical than transitioning once my body changed: I became an adult film star” To me this speaks to how people who transition often have issues that are at their core about sex, not social aspects if gender at all. There is way too much discussion about the pointless and irrelevant aspects of “gender” like whether people perceive you as a man or woman in a board meeting when it really doesn’t (read: shouldn’t) matter, and not nearly enough acknowledgement of what is often at the root of gender identity issues for those with gender dysphoria: sexual shame and anxieties. I wonder how much sex therapy Buck had before his transition. I remember hearing an interview with him where he acknowledged he couldn’t even touch his vagina until after he transitioned. I have heard the same from other trans men (one who said he couldn’t even look at his external genitals until he “became a man”). This speaks volumes to me about the true issue at hand: the issue is a rejection of one’s self as a sexual being. The transition is an attempt to make it ok for someone else, some other you, to be sexual. The sex work is also an attempt to again control and therefore empowerment over one’s sexual self. That’s either good if you think all these things (body mod, sex work, transition) is good or neutral, but a problem if you perceive these things as self harm(which many psychologists who deal with trauma do).
Third: I think a lot of trans people assume a lot about and frankly fundamentally misunderstand that their experiences aren’t completely exclusive to them. This is the other side of the coin of assuming your experiences are universal. It’s naive, slightly narcissistic, black and white distorted thinking. I get that sense when Buck says, “…everyone from tomboys gently rejecting stereotypes…” “Gently rejecting” rubs me the wrong way. Is it that Buck genuinely doesn’t know that struggling deeply, and suffering terribly from gender expectations and biases is as normal for young girls as it is for young black kids to struggle deeply and suffer terribly from racial expectations and biases? He has no window into what it felt like for those other tomboys. Anxious girls who are smart, eccentric, autistic, or gay often struggle terribly with accepting themselves to the point of “anguish” too.
I’m really happy that Buck supports exploring these ideas before deciding if transition is tight. There are many different ways to resolve or cope with psychological anguish centered around one’s gender/sexual body parts. But Buck was a huge influence in youth transition today: going around to schools and selling his story as “born in the wrong body,” “finally my true self,” “was a sad girl, now a strong, sexy man), etc. Buck’s transition is his career, financially (“I’m a trans elder” translates into “Tranpa” merch). And while I understand everyone deserves to pay their bills, I think it’s good to be skeptical of a narrative someone tells about themselves when that person’s livelihood is dependent on that narrative.
I strongly disagree that this post should be taken down. We don’t have to agree with everything Buck has done in his life or how he makes his money to appreciate his viewpoint on this issue. There are not that many F to M trans people that have long since transitioned and are willing to speak about their experiences. We hear much more from M to F transitioners. I’m neither a fan of cannabis nor a consumer of pornography, but I admire his resilience greatly.
Buck Angel almost died from the testosterone causing necrosis in her reproductive organs. How many emergencies of this sort shall we tolerate, and continue to say that "for some, its a good choice?" No 'sex change surgery" is without complications. Also, just fyi, Buck is a big marijuana promoter as well. Very "alternative" lifestyle. As a retired teacher, I taught kids who inhaled a great deal of second-hand pot smoke, to their detriment. Buck has a shtick. If you want to be taken in by it, that is your choice. All of my statements are based on Buck's actual words. Isaac Uncooked YT channel, from a male detransitioner has a very similar skepticism of this individual.
Daily consumption of marijuana makes a person less ambitious and as well, lingers in the system for many days, making the job of driving a school bus, which Buck did, a serious safety concern. Think about ramifications, cause and effect, what significance this or that may have as time goes on.
"Transition saved my life." im glad ur doing OK. but this statement is harmful and most likely false. most who "transition" would have been better off if they never had.
"i became deeply uncomfortable with my female body...i hit bottom." alot of people have drug addiction, psych issues and/or and hit bottom. blaming this on your body is addiction/psych issue excuse #5 billion. the problem with this lame excuse for your psych issues is that its harmful to claim disassociation with ones own body is healthy. this claim with no evidence to support it other than your own misconception harms others by fraudulently claiming "trans" helps. it doesnt. even if it worked for you. it doesnt for most.
Beautifully written. This should be in the New York Times.
“Once I got sober, and got therapy, I also got clarity. I told the therapist I felt that I should be—no, that I was—a man, and, unlike everyone else I’d ever said this to, she said, “I hear you. I believe you.”
This makes the strongest case. Why do young people get so angry when anyone does anything they don’t 100% agree with? That’s a big tell. It seems to me that there definitely and obviously is a social contagion going on among young leftist kids. The internet plays a huge role here. And the therapy/mental health angle is beyond obvious: We know masses of teens today suffer from high levels of depression and other issues.
Clearly a small % of people are genuinely trans and have body dysmorphia and they should transition, but as Buck said: This should be done carefully and slowly with adult supervision and discussion. And not at age 16. None of this should be controversial...yet it is.
It’s interesting how the trans movement clashes with both feminism and the gay community. But also the Black community, which is ironic since that’s the Left’s sacred stone. Pew poll recently shows that 66% of Black Americans think sex is immutable and fixed at birth.
The young radical trans activists are on the wrong side of both history and commonsense.
I guess I think of it less as "genuinely trans" than that for a small number of people, transition works, and their lives improve. Buck had hit bottom, was homeless and prostituting, and transition gave him the strength to continue living. He believes that he has a mental illness, but that transition was a good treatment for it—in his case. The problem is, it's almost impossible to tell for whom that will be the case, and for whom it will be much worse. Which is why he is against childhood transition and advocates for exploratory therapy, like he had.
Here's the interesting part, in my mind, what if different therapies such as CBT/DBT were available back then. Would one of these help align the brain with reality and he too could "desist"? Would Buck still have transitioned? Obviously, we can't know the answer to that.
I think the answer of what to do with the two groups of kids (<pre-pubescent & post-pubescent) is to see what therapies come out of Sweden and Finland.
This is my question. Do trans people even receive sex therapy (which seems to be the core issue at a lot of gender dysphoria) and exposure therapy for body dysmorphic disorder? How can you even claim after a year or 2 of “talk therapy” these people could be expected to reconnect with their bodies? Talk therapy is not evidence based for body dysmorphic issues, for one.
Ok, on the subject of levels of discourse here v. Eg Twitter, here’s a hilarious take from Kathleen Stock on the Twitter end of things: https://archive.is/XWYFR. As a teaser, this is how she closes her piece:
The bottom line is that there’s no social disincentive to behave badly online. Charlie might be nice enough to win a chocolate factory, but online he would probably be toast. Going nuclear in public about how evil someone else is will get you far more attention than any carefully worded message about the value of charity in interpreting others. Showing off about your glamorous social life will beat humility every time — just as complaining dramatically will beat quiet stoicism. I’m afraid the class sneaks and show-offs are in charge now, and in vain might we wish for Willie Wonka to turn up and turn them all into blueberries.
This is a wonderfully lucid, thoughtful essay. If only everyone engaged in this conversation could be as well-reasoned and candid as Buck Angel. Of all the important points in this piece, this may be the most important: "Dysphoria is in the brain. If you’re skipping over the brain and going straight to the body, you’re not helping trans people." As a biological psychologist, I agree completely.
Indeed, all of our thoughts, desires, and beliefs are, in the end, in the brain... Including our gender identity. Further, the construction of this part of our personality is, by its very nature, complex. Often, this complexity is misunderstood or overlooked:
One origin of the idea that transwomen actually are women and transmen are actually men: IDENTIFICATION: from identifying WITH to identifying AS.
Probably been said before, and in a way obvious. But some conventionally feminine gay male types - men with apparently inborn 'naturally feminine' personalities - famously have close relationships with women and vice versa.
In a joking but also serious way, they're 'one of the girls' - in personality style and, often, interests, even in views of men, whether straight or gay.
The company of women - especially women who match their seemingly natural behavior - becomes one important cultural setting for men who may have been ridiculed and ostracized for their behavior.
So the idea here is that these men IDENTIFY WITH women - that is, they identify something in themselves with similar qualities they discover in certain types of women.
A 'feminine style' becomes a shared social currency of behaviors and interests and responses to the world - something that can be 'exaggerated for effect'...and view of themselves...
...I repeat: AND VIEW OF THEMSELVES. That is, the idea is that - in varying degrees - certain gay men not only identify WITH women, but, in doing so, are, in fact, also identifying AS women - whether entirely consciously or not.
We have here, then, one origin of the idea of feeling that 'inside one is the opposite sex' - having the soul of a woman or a man.
Three thoughts here.
First, this idea of identity is not just personal but social - that is, it gels into an idea of 'inner self' through active modeling and social intercourse with the opposite sex...or, alternately, based on an individual's life goals, it does NOT gel into the 'inner essence' idea - some men and women may accentuate or subordinate or integrate into their own sex identity 'opposite sex' behaviors. e.g. - 'I'm a man who cries. Men can cry too.' In other words, you can't totally invent yourself, but people are not passive 'victims' of their personalities either.
(This, of course, returns us to one of Ms. Davis' themes.)
Second, although gay culture provides a kind of 'ideal setting' for some men to cultivate these identification-based relationships with women, there is no reason that conventionally feminine straight men could not cultivate such relationships too. Probably some men do - but in the kind of relationship I'm talking about, it's likely more frowned on socially, plus the sexual attraction factor can be problematic.
So third and finally - the case of gay men suggests something else, obvious but worth underscoring: feminine behaviors and the inner identification is not necessarily accompanied by body dysmorphia nor gender dysphoria. And here we come to Blanchard's theory that one transgender type is 'actually homosexual.'
I've already proposed that 'identifying with' contains elements of 'identifying as.' I can't say why some men and not others appear to shift wholly from 'identifying with' to 'identifying as.'
But to come back to my starting point: this shift - specifically in a relationship with body dysmorphia or gender dysphoria - may explain one way in which the 'born with the soul of XX versus XY chromosomes' developed: sure, it's an ideology - and may, as has been suggested, obscure or deliberately hide other transgender types. And no, that's not the same as belonging to the opposite sex biologically. But, I'm speculating, the ideology is partly grounded in a real 'identity formation' apparent in some gays and some transgender people.
These are really interesting and subtle points. One thing I’ve been struggling with is how to tease out and examine separately, and then communicate clearly to others, matters of personal self-expression/identification as separate and distinct from the issues that arise when those personal expressions/identifications migrate over to and affect law and policy. So, here re some thoughts in formation on that:
Thinking back to the trans Venn diagram Lisa posted, as well as what Angel states here: while what we may well have is many people simply involved in their own personal journeys, we also have a smaller activist group that fashions from those personal journeys a belief system/ideology which it wants codified in law and policy to the exclusion of any competing concerns, and even to the exclusion of basic biology.
I think our current impasse comes in large part from this. That is, this activist sector not only does not appear willing to recognize that there are a variety of stakeholders and law and policy must address all of that fairly, but also this sector actively, and sometimes violently, shuts down discussion of any type such that no problem-solving can occur.
The unwillingness of the activist sector even to recognize the sorry state of the science related to pediatric gender medicine is case in point of where we end up when personal journeys coalesce into a belief system/ideology that demands obeisance from everyone else. It seems to me very much analogous to the intransigence of “pro-life” activism. And we know, with Dobbs, how that is turning out.
I welcome yours or anyone’s thoughts on this, for, as I wrote initially, these are thoughts in formation, not anything set in stone.
“Dysphoria is in the brain. If you’re skipping over the brain and going straight to the body, you’re not helping trans people.”
I have oddly kept up with Buck over the years (thought he seemed very level headed and sincere). When I noticed the pivot from “transsexual” to “transgender” in society, his story and reaction to the current zeitgeist of this issue was something I kept an eye on.
I deeply appreciate someone like him speaking up on this issue in a time like this. One only hopes mainstream media takes note - it could help save a lot of grief in this nation.
👍
"When it comes to gender dysphoria, talk therapy is more important than anything else." A crucial question is how do we keep this treatment from being labeled as "conversion therapy"? The activists know that by using this term they are winning over most progressives, who are aware of harmful attempts to "pray away the gay." How do we make sure that children get the thorough evaluations and counseling that they need—real "time to think"—when trans activists control the narrative so successfully?
It's really important that we differentiate between conversion therapy and exploring the source of GD—it really needs some work and attention, and I think GETA, CTA and other newer groups can and should put some effort there. And may be! In a couple of weeks I'm publishing something about that—just have to finish it!
GETA doesn't vet people, as far as I know. The therapists self-select. It's up to you to find one you feel good about.
True. Parents need to speak out. But also people need to lawyer up and sue.
That's definitely starting to happen, and, sadly, that's what it takes for change in this country. So I think in the next year a lot is going to happen.
This is actually part of the problem, and I will repeat again to Lisa Selin Davis, just read my book. You told me you received my review copy and it sits by your night table in the pile. I am a trans widow. I saw and experienced by (now) ex-husband's body dysphoria. Instead of reacting to what I say like the typical liberal parents of my Kindergarten students, saying a generalism, "she doesn't want me to platform trans" how about you read my memoir and recognize the attack on the family that the diagnosing "sexologist" (diagnosis in first meeting, July, 1993) engaged in. In a sworn affidavit in court, accusing me of 'forcing' my husband to 'decide to live full-time as a woman' because i refused his sex role play demands and asked for divorce. Like I said read my memoir, which I sent to you for no charge, before you accuse me of saying what I actually never said. And, soooorry, but Buck Angel stated publicly that she smokes a lot of pot and publicly stated that she also drives a school bus. Soorry. But . . .
Good point. Loved that recent Maher. It’s true. Day of Vengeance? Cmon
Buck Angel is a producer of pornography and sells "lube" and other sex accoutrements on her platform. Earlier in life, she influenced many San Francisco butch lesbians to "transition." Lesbian bars disappeared, as men ideating a female persona started claiming to be lesbians. Working as a school bus driver, it is difficult to imagine Buck was not influencing the students. She appeared on the Howard Stern show and rode on a mechanical dildo in a state of undress in a public display. Buck is pulling the fleece over on the gender critical camp; if they take the bait and start believing this is an individual who will help children. I personally heard Buck on an interview a couple of years ago, conjecturing that a young woman entering Buck's porn world wouldn't have to be concerned about going to college. Please do your homework, it is all out there on the web.
Ute, thank you for sounding these cautionary notes. (And you are right, as I just confirmed, it doesn’t take much to uncover red flags here.) There are so many sincere, intelligent, eloquent transexuals who can speak to these issues that I have to say I am disappointed Angel was given this platform that I have come to trust so much, rather than someone without these serious problems. At the very least Angel needed to address the issues you note as part of this post. As we all know, this is a fraught subject, and it is incumbent on all of us who wish to persuade others that the concerns we have are valid not to put forth as a credible, trustworthy spokesperson anyone can be so easily, and I think validly, discredited.
Lisa, I hate to say this, but so as not to discredit your own incredibly valuable platform, unless Angel can rehabilitate himself vis-a-vis the points Ute is raising, I think this post ought to be taken down.
Buck admits *in this piece* that he's an adult film star. I couldn't care if sells lube (why would anyone?) or other sex products, or rides a mechanical dildo on Howard Stern, which I don't listen to or watch. I don't like porn so I don't watch it, and you don't have to, either. He's very open about the physical problems with transitioning and has educated others about testosterone's effects on the body. Ute's objections are hers to have—since she has expressed in private emails to me that she no longer supports my work, I'm not sure why she's here. She does not want me to platform trans people, but that's a huge part of what I'm doing—trying to help diversify the trans voices in the media.
Hi, Lisa: I very much appreciate your forthright response, and also I applaud your efforts to platform trans people as part of the Team Complexity mission. I believe it to be essential, and I am grateful to you for undertaking that. I have learned a lot, and it has helped me enormously in discussing this with others. In this case, though I am no porn fan, I am actually less concerned about the porn aspect than this: “Earlier in life, she influenced many San Francisco butch lesbians to "transition." Lesbian bars disappeared, as men ideating a female persona started claiming to be lesbians.” Is this something Angel has addressed? If so, I would be grateful for a link so I can hear/read directly what Angel says about this. Part of my concern is that I have, and would like to continue, to share this post as an example of how so many trans folks are not on board with gender ideology and why, which I think Angel does articulate very clearly. If what I quote from Ute is inaccurate, I would be relieved, and it will also help me be better armed when I talk with folks about what Angel is saying, should they contest Angel’s credibility. I want also to apologize to you if I have jumped the gun here. It is so easy to fall into potholes!
Makes sense, absolutely, Susan! Mostly I'm addressing what Ute raised, little of which concerns me. Buck is not single-handedly responsible for the disappearance of lesbian bars. I spent a lot of time in them in the 90s; they're not here anymore, either. I don't know if he actively tried to get other women to transition, but it's worth asking him about, and I don't mind doing so. Even if he did, it wouldn't invalidate his op-ed, or what he's doing now. It would be one of his many stories of making mistakes in life. I did so many wrong things in my life, but none of that, I hope, takes away from what I'm doing now. Taking a post down is a form of cancellation, of holding people to impossible standards of moral purity. I want us as a culture to move away from that. You can like Buck's ideas and not like Buck. I happen to like him, but then again, I'm willing to commune with lots of other people. But the truth is, I'm very sensitive and when someone decides that I'm a bad person and a bad journalist, and has a super narrow range of normal, I can't really spend much time engaging. I'm in it for reform and for shifting the zeitgeist. That requires a broad tent.
Lisa, thank you so much. It means so much that you engage with all of this the way you do. I am interested in what Angel might say, but it also occurred to me, too, on reflection, that “even if he did, it wouldn't invalidate his op-ed, or what he's doing now. It would be one of his many stories of making mistakes in life. I did so many wrong things in my life, but none of that, I hope, takes away from what I'm doing now.” Let it be known that I did, too--and indeed still do, an object lesson for me of which is jumping the gun here, eg! This whole discussion has offered me yet another valuable lesson, all thanks to you--and now I have a better idea of how to talk about all this should I get similar pushback when pointing folks to this post.
Susan, the disappearance of lesbian bars has to do with lesbians, there have never been a lot of lesbian bars to begin with. We are women and as such have different needs than biological men, in particular gay men, we nest and nurture as soon as we can. We find , wine and dine then call for the Uhaul. In Philadelphia there was one lesbian bar growing up, Hepburns and it eventually closed down. Then Sisters opened up, and I hear that eventually shut down. In Los Angeles there is NO lesbian bars, but there are thousands of Lesbians. Buck is not responsible for changing anyone but himself
Hey, Michelle: thanks for weighing in. as an “L” myself, I don’t have a strong opinion about this, but would only say there are a lot of different theories about the reasons behind the disappearance of the bars and also the increasing disappearance of any semblance of an L community, generally. In that regard, I am gratified by, and will be looking to, the Lesbian Project newly formed in the UK by Julie Bindel and Kathleen Stock for development of more information and for lifting up the concerns and needs of Ls, whatever they may be. However this all started out today, I think we ended up having a really good, nuanced discussion that looked at the issues initially raised from a variety of perspectives. I am all the more grateful to Lisa for providing such thought provoking posts and a place where we can gather to have such rich and open-ended conversations. That opportunity is rare indeed in this polarized environment.
Don’t listen to the hate Lisa. You are doing great
I would actually go beyond saying that Lisa is doing great (with which I totally agree), to say, as I reflected on this whole discussion this morning, that what Lisa has provided here, and modeled herself, is a safe space in which we can learn together how to grapple with thorny problems, make room for disagreements, listen to a variety of points of view, and seek a way forward, together. Lisa’s Substack is the only place of which I am aware (though others may have examples, of course), that does not have the tendency to devolve down into an echo chamber. Yesterday’s discussion seemed to me a sterling example of this, and it is Lisa’s approach that makes it possible. Brava, Lisa, and I look forward to the next installment!
Man. I am not encouraged by what appears to me to be an extreme anti-sex moral panic marching forth from both the far left and far right.
It is reasonable to criticize the nuttiest aspects of the trans-activist agenda. It is reasonable to question and criticize pornography. It is reasonable to call people to account for unacceptable sexual behavior (i.e. manipulation or coercion).
But some people seem to have been so hurt, or are so poisoned by religious nonsense, that they are seriously seeking to drive American sexual freedom off a cliff.
Know what? If someone didn't actual force a person into a sexual activity, the person involved ***must*** take responsibility for his or her own actions. It will not do for people to say, "I was afraid to say 'no'" or whatever. There are obviously horrific and terrible situations in which bad actors coerce or deceitfully (illegally) manipulate others into sexual activity. But those cases are the exception. People need to stop pretending that they can escape from personal responsibility by saying they were uncomfortable, or didn't "think" they could say no. Could you physically say no, without endangering yourself? Then you should have said no if you did not want to participate.
Really, America? Shall we try to push sexual freedom back under the ground? Would you, judgers and scolders, like to have ***your*** particular proclivities, whether "vanilla" or not, scrutinized and judged "bad"?
Stop it.
The trans diagnosis is by no means supported by the science, as demonstrated by the multiple expert witness testimonies from Dr. Stephen B. Levine, very easily accessed by an online search. "She does not want me to platform trans people?" Does Buck talk about this? the very sketchy "research" of the Dutch Protocols: 70 subjects, then suddenly 55 subjects, no explanations. Then 2 died. So, 53 subjects. Then we find out that the exit interviews were quite sketchy, not the same as the entry interviews. So, Ute's personal experience matches the sketchy science? Ute's story about a "therapist" relaying a demand of my husband that I pretend to "be a man" in bed to "satisfy" his desire to "be a woman" is something you diminish in this way? Really? Do you call yourself a feminist? I do not. You are influenced, brainwashed and indoctrinated by the "Gender Unicorn" which I say teachers should refuse to let into their classrooms. While I'd appreciate if you'd recognize I paid to even write one word here, while anyone can come on uteheggengrasswidow.wordpress.com and submit a comment for free and comment for free on my youtube channel, this is what you will live with, what your children will live with, if you continue to ignore science. The world in which White, upper middle class liberals have allowed this ideology, not supported by science, now rejected by Norway, Sweden, Finland and the UK, will live to see the violence of "Trans Day of Vengeance, Los Angeles" which happened, and rethink their values. It is not about "being angry" or "not liking" you. Just read my book already.
Penny: wonderfully succinct and goes right to the point. Thank you!
The best resource is the Dr. Stephen B. Levine expert witness testimony, in which he tells his journey from "affirming" psychiatrist to challenging the entire diagnosis. The rest is pure narcissism, and Miss Angel has an extreme case of it.
This is a really excellent article. I want to commend Buck for his courage and nuance on this topic. There’s a couple of points I want to push back on though: I think Buck’s perspective, which some might call “trans-medical” and which is shared by many trans people who are older and therefore sought therapy during a time when there was more appropriate medical safeguarding for transition, often fail to address the issue of trans people who go through all the appropriate therapy, guidance, test-run of social transition, but after it all don’t pass. Blaire White’s perspective also has this issue imo. It’s all well and good to say “I got proper care and so my transition is successful” but it seems like a LOT of what makes a transition a success is whether people buy it. Buck looks like a man in daily interactions, so it “works” for him, and for society. But what about if Buck didn’t pass? This issue is under discussed, imo. I have been calling Buck “he” bc he LOOKS male. The issue is that almost all trans women, and many trans men, DONT pass, and therefore requires constant effort to address with correct pronouns. These people expect and request a suspension of disbelief from others around them which crosses the line of controlling other people’s behavior, thoughts, and feelings. It’s an inappropriate imposition on people imo. So how does that work? According to Buck, should psychologists just recommend that basically no males transition, and that especially petite/small females don’t transition? What does the mental health of a trans person who has received comprehensive care but don’t pass look like?
Another qualm: “I did something even more radical than transitioning once my body changed: I became an adult film star” To me this speaks to how people who transition often have issues that are at their core about sex, not social aspects if gender at all. There is way too much discussion about the pointless and irrelevant aspects of “gender” like whether people perceive you as a man or woman in a board meeting when it really doesn’t (read: shouldn’t) matter, and not nearly enough acknowledgement of what is often at the root of gender identity issues for those with gender dysphoria: sexual shame and anxieties. I wonder how much sex therapy Buck had before his transition. I remember hearing an interview with him where he acknowledged he couldn’t even touch his vagina until after he transitioned. I have heard the same from other trans men (one who said he couldn’t even look at his external genitals until he “became a man”). This speaks volumes to me about the true issue at hand: the issue is a rejection of one’s self as a sexual being. The transition is an attempt to make it ok for someone else, some other you, to be sexual. The sex work is also an attempt to again control and therefore empowerment over one’s sexual self. That’s either good if you think all these things (body mod, sex work, transition) is good or neutral, but a problem if you perceive these things as self harm(which many psychologists who deal with trauma do).
Third: I think a lot of trans people assume a lot about and frankly fundamentally misunderstand that their experiences aren’t completely exclusive to them. This is the other side of the coin of assuming your experiences are universal. It’s naive, slightly narcissistic, black and white distorted thinking. I get that sense when Buck says, “…everyone from tomboys gently rejecting stereotypes…” “Gently rejecting” rubs me the wrong way. Is it that Buck genuinely doesn’t know that struggling deeply, and suffering terribly from gender expectations and biases is as normal for young girls as it is for young black kids to struggle deeply and suffer terribly from racial expectations and biases? He has no window into what it felt like for those other tomboys. Anxious girls who are smart, eccentric, autistic, or gay often struggle terribly with accepting themselves to the point of “anguish” too.
I’m really happy that Buck supports exploring these ideas before deciding if transition is tight. There are many different ways to resolve or cope with psychological anguish centered around one’s gender/sexual body parts. But Buck was a huge influence in youth transition today: going around to schools and selling his story as “born in the wrong body,” “finally my true self,” “was a sad girl, now a strong, sexy man), etc. Buck’s transition is his career, financially (“I’m a trans elder” translates into “Tranpa” merch). And while I understand everyone deserves to pay their bills, I think it’s good to be skeptical of a narrative someone tells about themselves when that person’s livelihood is dependent on that narrative.
Powerful, nuanced insights and thinking. Thank you so much for adding so much to this discussion!
Thanks for your kind words! :)
I strongly disagree that this post should be taken down. We don’t have to agree with everything Buck has done in his life or how he makes his money to appreciate his viewpoint on this issue. There are not that many F to M trans people that have long since transitioned and are willing to speak about their experiences. We hear much more from M to F transitioners. I’m neither a fan of cannabis nor a consumer of pornography, but I admire his resilience greatly.
And I now agree with you and am enormously grateful for the fulsome discussion that ensued.
Buck Angel almost died from the testosterone causing necrosis in her reproductive organs. How many emergencies of this sort shall we tolerate, and continue to say that "for some, its a good choice?" No 'sex change surgery" is without complications. Also, just fyi, Buck is a big marijuana promoter as well. Very "alternative" lifestyle. As a retired teacher, I taught kids who inhaled a great deal of second-hand pot smoke, to their detriment. Buck has a shtick. If you want to be taken in by it, that is your choice. All of my statements are based on Buck's actual words. Isaac Uncooked YT channel, from a male detransitioner has a very similar skepticism of this individual.
Buck has made many videos to help inform trans men about how dangerous T is for the body, yes. Great that he's helping people understand this.
What’s wrong with weed?
Daily consumption of marijuana makes a person less ambitious and as well, lingers in the system for many days, making the job of driving a school bus, which Buck did, a serious safety concern. Think about ramifications, cause and effect, what significance this or that may have as time goes on.
Seems very beside the point of fighting the trans brigade
"Transition saved my life." im glad ur doing OK. but this statement is harmful and most likely false. most who "transition" would have been better off if they never had.
"i became deeply uncomfortable with my female body...i hit bottom." alot of people have drug addiction, psych issues and/or and hit bottom. blaming this on your body is addiction/psych issue excuse #5 billion. the problem with this lame excuse for your psych issues is that its harmful to claim disassociation with ones own body is healthy. this claim with no evidence to support it other than your own misconception harms others by fraudulently claiming "trans" helps. it doesnt. even if it worked for you. it doesnt for most.
Beautifully written. This should be in the New York Times.
“Once I got sober, and got therapy, I also got clarity. I told the therapist I felt that I should be—no, that I was—a man, and, unlike everyone else I’d ever said this to, she said, “I hear you. I believe you.”
This makes the strongest case. Why do young people get so angry when anyone does anything they don’t 100% agree with? That’s a big tell. It seems to me that there definitely and obviously is a social contagion going on among young leftist kids. The internet plays a huge role here. And the therapy/mental health angle is beyond obvious: We know masses of teens today suffer from high levels of depression and other issues.
Clearly a small % of people are genuinely trans and have body dysmorphia and they should transition, but as Buck said: This should be done carefully and slowly with adult supervision and discussion. And not at age 16. None of this should be controversial...yet it is.
It’s interesting how the trans movement clashes with both feminism and the gay community. But also the Black community, which is ironic since that’s the Left’s sacred stone. Pew poll recently shows that 66% of Black Americans think sex is immutable and fixed at birth.
The young radical trans activists are on the wrong side of both history and commonsense.
https://michaelmohr.substack.com/p/some-surprising-data-on-black-americans
***
Michael Mohr
‘Sincere American Writing’
https://michaelmohr.substack.com/
I guess I think of it less as "genuinely trans" than that for a small number of people, transition works, and their lives improve. Buck had hit bottom, was homeless and prostituting, and transition gave him the strength to continue living. He believes that he has a mental illness, but that transition was a good treatment for it—in his case. The problem is, it's almost impossible to tell for whom that will be the case, and for whom it will be much worse. Which is why he is against childhood transition and advocates for exploratory therapy, like he had.
Here's the interesting part, in my mind, what if different therapies such as CBT/DBT were available back then. Would one of these help align the brain with reality and he too could "desist"? Would Buck still have transitioned? Obviously, we can't know the answer to that.
I think the answer of what to do with the two groups of kids (<pre-pubescent & post-pubescent) is to see what therapies come out of Sweden and Finland.
This is my question. Do trans people even receive sex therapy (which seems to be the core issue at a lot of gender dysphoria) and exposure therapy for body dysmorphic disorder? How can you even claim after a year or 2 of “talk therapy” these people could be expected to reconnect with their bodies? Talk therapy is not evidence based for body dysmorphic issues, for one.
Thank you for being you! From your lesbian sister.
Ok, on the subject of levels of discourse here v. Eg Twitter, here’s a hilarious take from Kathleen Stock on the Twitter end of things: https://archive.is/XWYFR. As a teaser, this is how she closes her piece:
The bottom line is that there’s no social disincentive to behave badly online. Charlie might be nice enough to win a chocolate factory, but online he would probably be toast. Going nuclear in public about how evil someone else is will get you far more attention than any carefully worded message about the value of charity in interpreting others. Showing off about your glamorous social life will beat humility every time — just as complaining dramatically will beat quiet stoicism. I’m afraid the class sneaks and show-offs are in charge now, and in vain might we wish for Willie Wonka to turn up and turn them all into blueberries.
🫐🫐🫐🫐🫐
As always Buck speaks a truth so many don’t want to hear. I am grateful for his sensibility and common sense words on the subject.
This is a wonderfully lucid, thoughtful essay. If only everyone engaged in this conversation could be as well-reasoned and candid as Buck Angel. Of all the important points in this piece, this may be the most important: "Dysphoria is in the brain. If you’re skipping over the brain and going straight to the body, you’re not helping trans people." As a biological psychologist, I agree completely.
Indeed, all of our thoughts, desires, and beliefs are, in the end, in the brain... Including our gender identity. Further, the construction of this part of our personality is, by its very nature, complex. Often, this complexity is misunderstood or overlooked:
https://everythingisbiology.substack.com/p/there-is-biological-evidence-for
Thank you for this wonderful piece of writing. It is both informative and inspirational. Sincerely, Frederick
Fantastic. Thank you Buck for your bravery. All well said
One origin of the idea that transwomen actually are women and transmen are actually men: IDENTIFICATION: from identifying WITH to identifying AS.
Probably been said before, and in a way obvious. But some conventionally feminine gay male types - men with apparently inborn 'naturally feminine' personalities - famously have close relationships with women and vice versa.
In a joking but also serious way, they're 'one of the girls' - in personality style and, often, interests, even in views of men, whether straight or gay.
The company of women - especially women who match their seemingly natural behavior - becomes one important cultural setting for men who may have been ridiculed and ostracized for their behavior.
So the idea here is that these men IDENTIFY WITH women - that is, they identify something in themselves with similar qualities they discover in certain types of women.
A 'feminine style' becomes a shared social currency of behaviors and interests and responses to the world - something that can be 'exaggerated for effect'...and view of themselves...
...I repeat: AND VIEW OF THEMSELVES. That is, the idea is that - in varying degrees - certain gay men not only identify WITH women, but, in doing so, are, in fact, also identifying AS women - whether entirely consciously or not.
We have here, then, one origin of the idea of feeling that 'inside one is the opposite sex' - having the soul of a woman or a man.
Three thoughts here.
First, this idea of identity is not just personal but social - that is, it gels into an idea of 'inner self' through active modeling and social intercourse with the opposite sex...or, alternately, based on an individual's life goals, it does NOT gel into the 'inner essence' idea - some men and women may accentuate or subordinate or integrate into their own sex identity 'opposite sex' behaviors. e.g. - 'I'm a man who cries. Men can cry too.' In other words, you can't totally invent yourself, but people are not passive 'victims' of their personalities either.
(This, of course, returns us to one of Ms. Davis' themes.)
Second, although gay culture provides a kind of 'ideal setting' for some men to cultivate these identification-based relationships with women, there is no reason that conventionally feminine straight men could not cultivate such relationships too. Probably some men do - but in the kind of relationship I'm talking about, it's likely more frowned on socially, plus the sexual attraction factor can be problematic.
So third and finally - the case of gay men suggests something else, obvious but worth underscoring: feminine behaviors and the inner identification is not necessarily accompanied by body dysmorphia nor gender dysphoria. And here we come to Blanchard's theory that one transgender type is 'actually homosexual.'
I've already proposed that 'identifying with' contains elements of 'identifying as.' I can't say why some men and not others appear to shift wholly from 'identifying with' to 'identifying as.'
But to come back to my starting point: this shift - specifically in a relationship with body dysmorphia or gender dysphoria - may explain one way in which the 'born with the soul of XX versus XY chromosomes' developed: sure, it's an ideology - and may, as has been suggested, obscure or deliberately hide other transgender types. And no, that's not the same as belonging to the opposite sex biologically. But, I'm speculating, the ideology is partly grounded in a real 'identity formation' apparent in some gays and some transgender people.
These are really interesting and subtle points. One thing I’ve been struggling with is how to tease out and examine separately, and then communicate clearly to others, matters of personal self-expression/identification as separate and distinct from the issues that arise when those personal expressions/identifications migrate over to and affect law and policy. So, here re some thoughts in formation on that:
Thinking back to the trans Venn diagram Lisa posted, as well as what Angel states here: while what we may well have is many people simply involved in their own personal journeys, we also have a smaller activist group that fashions from those personal journeys a belief system/ideology which it wants codified in law and policy to the exclusion of any competing concerns, and even to the exclusion of basic biology.
I think our current impasse comes in large part from this. That is, this activist sector not only does not appear willing to recognize that there are a variety of stakeholders and law and policy must address all of that fairly, but also this sector actively, and sometimes violently, shuts down discussion of any type such that no problem-solving can occur.
The unwillingness of the activist sector even to recognize the sorry state of the science related to pediatric gender medicine is case in point of where we end up when personal journeys coalesce into a belief system/ideology that demands obeisance from everyone else. It seems to me very much analogous to the intransigence of “pro-life” activism. And we know, with Dobbs, how that is turning out.
I welcome yours or anyone’s thoughts on this, for, as I wrote initially, these are thoughts in formation, not anything set in stone.