Lisa, I hate to say this, but so as not to discredit your own incredibly valuable platform, unless Angel can rehabilitate himself vis-a-vis the points Ute is raising, I think this post ought to be taken down.
Lisa, I hate to say this, but so as not to discredit your own incredibly valuable platform, unless Angel can rehabilitate himself vis-a-vis the points Ute is raising, I think this post ought to be taken down.
Buck admits *in this piece* that he's an adult film star. I couldn't care if sells lube (why would anyone?) or other sex products, or rides a mechanical dildo on Howard Stern, which I don't listen to or watch. I don't like porn so I don't watch it, and you don't have to, either. He's very open about the physical problems with transitioning and has educated others about testosterone's effects on the body. Ute's objections are hers to have—since she has expressed in private emails to me that she no longer supports my work, I'm not sure why she's here. She does not want me to platform trans people, but that's a huge part of what I'm doing—trying to help diversify the trans voices in the media.
Hi, Lisa: I very much appreciate your forthright response, and also I applaud your efforts to platform trans people as part of the Team Complexity mission. I believe it to be essential, and I am grateful to you for undertaking that. I have learned a lot, and it has helped me enormously in discussing this with others. In this case, though I am no porn fan, I am actually less concerned about the porn aspect than this: “Earlier in life, she influenced many San Francisco butch lesbians to "transition." Lesbian bars disappeared, as men ideating a female persona started claiming to be lesbians.” Is this something Angel has addressed? If so, I would be grateful for a link so I can hear/read directly what Angel says about this. Part of my concern is that I have, and would like to continue, to share this post as an example of how so many trans folks are not on board with gender ideology and why, which I think Angel does articulate very clearly. If what I quote from Ute is inaccurate, I would be relieved, and it will also help me be better armed when I talk with folks about what Angel is saying, should they contest Angel’s credibility. I want also to apologize to you if I have jumped the gun here. It is so easy to fall into potholes!
Makes sense, absolutely, Susan! Mostly I'm addressing what Ute raised, little of which concerns me. Buck is not single-handedly responsible for the disappearance of lesbian bars. I spent a lot of time in them in the 90s; they're not here anymore, either. I don't know if he actively tried to get other women to transition, but it's worth asking him about, and I don't mind doing so. Even if he did, it wouldn't invalidate his op-ed, or what he's doing now. It would be one of his many stories of making mistakes in life. I did so many wrong things in my life, but none of that, I hope, takes away from what I'm doing now. Taking a post down is a form of cancellation, of holding people to impossible standards of moral purity. I want us as a culture to move away from that. You can like Buck's ideas and not like Buck. I happen to like him, but then again, I'm willing to commune with lots of other people. But the truth is, I'm very sensitive and when someone decides that I'm a bad person and a bad journalist, and has a super narrow range of normal, I can't really spend much time engaging. I'm in it for reform and for shifting the zeitgeist. That requires a broad tent.
Lisa, thank you so much. It means so much that you engage with all of this the way you do. I am interested in what Angel might say, but it also occurred to me, too, on reflection, that “even if he did, it wouldn't invalidate his op-ed, or what he's doing now. It would be one of his many stories of making mistakes in life. I did so many wrong things in my life, but none of that, I hope, takes away from what I'm doing now.” Let it be known that I did, too--and indeed still do, an object lesson for me of which is jumping the gun here, eg! This whole discussion has offered me yet another valuable lesson, all thanks to you--and now I have a better idea of how to talk about all this should I get similar pushback when pointing folks to this post.
I'm not sure my responses are models of curiosity and openness, though I completely understand Ute's response (even if I don't agree with it) and Susan's concerns!
I do love my readers, and want this to be a place where we can respectfully disagree and still commune. I'm hoping to have some more opportunities for that to happen on Zoom and in person. Working on it!
Susan, the disappearance of lesbian bars has to do with lesbians, there have never been a lot of lesbian bars to begin with. We are women and as such have different needs than biological men, in particular gay men, we nest and nurture as soon as we can. We find , wine and dine then call for the Uhaul. In Philadelphia there was one lesbian bar growing up, Hepburns and it eventually closed down. Then Sisters opened up, and I hear that eventually shut down. In Los Angeles there is NO lesbian bars, but there are thousands of Lesbians. Buck is not responsible for changing anyone but himself
Hey, Michelle: thanks for weighing in. as an “L” myself, I don’t have a strong opinion about this, but would only say there are a lot of different theories about the reasons behind the disappearance of the bars and also the increasing disappearance of any semblance of an L community, generally. In that regard, I am gratified by, and will be looking to, the Lesbian Project newly formed in the UK by Julie Bindel and Kathleen Stock for development of more information and for lifting up the concerns and needs of Ls, whatever they may be. However this all started out today, I think we ended up having a really good, nuanced discussion that looked at the issues initially raised from a variety of perspectives. I am all the more grateful to Lisa for providing such thought provoking posts and a place where we can gather to have such rich and open-ended conversations. That opportunity is rare indeed in this polarized environment.
Man. I am not encouraged by what appears to me to be an extreme anti-sex moral panic marching forth from both the far left and far right.
It is reasonable to criticize the nuttiest aspects of the trans-activist agenda. It is reasonable to question and criticize pornography. It is reasonable to call people to account for unacceptable sexual behavior (i.e. manipulation or coercion).
But some people seem to have been so hurt, or are so poisoned by religious nonsense, that they are seriously seeking to drive American sexual freedom off a cliff.
Know what? If someone didn't actual force a person into a sexual activity, the person involved ***must*** take responsibility for his or her own actions. It will not do for people to say, "I was afraid to say 'no'" or whatever. There are obviously horrific and terrible situations in which bad actors coerce or deceitfully (illegally) manipulate others into sexual activity. But those cases are the exception. People need to stop pretending that they can escape from personal responsibility by saying they were uncomfortable, or didn't "think" they could say no. Could you physically say no, without endangering yourself? Then you should have said no if you did not want to participate.
Really, America? Shall we try to push sexual freedom back under the ground? Would you, judgers and scolders, like to have ***your*** particular proclivities, whether "vanilla" or not, scrutinized and judged "bad"?
The trans diagnosis is by no means supported by the science, as demonstrated by the multiple expert witness testimonies from Dr. Stephen B. Levine, very easily accessed by an online search. "She does not want me to platform trans people?" Does Buck talk about this? the very sketchy "research" of the Dutch Protocols: 70 subjects, then suddenly 55 subjects, no explanations. Then 2 died. So, 53 subjects. Then we find out that the exit interviews were quite sketchy, not the same as the entry interviews. So, Ute's personal experience matches the sketchy science? Ute's story about a "therapist" relaying a demand of my husband that I pretend to "be a man" in bed to "satisfy" his desire to "be a woman" is something you diminish in this way? Really? Do you call yourself a feminist? I do not. You are influenced, brainwashed and indoctrinated by the "Gender Unicorn" which I say teachers should refuse to let into their classrooms. While I'd appreciate if you'd recognize I paid to even write one word here, while anyone can come on uteheggengrasswidow.wordpress.com and submit a comment for free and comment for free on my youtube channel, this is what you will live with, what your children will live with, if you continue to ignore science. The world in which White, upper middle class liberals have allowed this ideology, not supported by science, now rejected by Norway, Sweden, Finland and the UK, will live to see the violence of "Trans Day of Vengeance, Los Angeles" which happened, and rethink their values. It is not about "being angry" or "not liking" you. Just read my book already.
I would actually go beyond saying that Lisa is doing great (with which I totally agree), to say, as I reflected on this whole discussion this morning, that what Lisa has provided here, and modeled herself, is a safe space in which we can learn together how to grapple with thorny problems, make room for disagreements, listen to a variety of points of view, and seek a way forward, together. Lisa’s Substack is the only place of which I am aware (though others may have examples, of course), that does not have the tendency to devolve down into an echo chamber. Yesterday’s discussion seemed to me a sterling example of this, and it is Lisa’s approach that makes it possible. Brava, Lisa, and I look forward to the next installment!
Lisa, I hate to say this, but so as not to discredit your own incredibly valuable platform, unless Angel can rehabilitate himself vis-a-vis the points Ute is raising, I think this post ought to be taken down.
Buck admits *in this piece* that he's an adult film star. I couldn't care if sells lube (why would anyone?) or other sex products, or rides a mechanical dildo on Howard Stern, which I don't listen to or watch. I don't like porn so I don't watch it, and you don't have to, either. He's very open about the physical problems with transitioning and has educated others about testosterone's effects on the body. Ute's objections are hers to have—since she has expressed in private emails to me that she no longer supports my work, I'm not sure why she's here. She does not want me to platform trans people, but that's a huge part of what I'm doing—trying to help diversify the trans voices in the media.
Hi, Lisa: I very much appreciate your forthright response, and also I applaud your efforts to platform trans people as part of the Team Complexity mission. I believe it to be essential, and I am grateful to you for undertaking that. I have learned a lot, and it has helped me enormously in discussing this with others. In this case, though I am no porn fan, I am actually less concerned about the porn aspect than this: “Earlier in life, she influenced many San Francisco butch lesbians to "transition." Lesbian bars disappeared, as men ideating a female persona started claiming to be lesbians.” Is this something Angel has addressed? If so, I would be grateful for a link so I can hear/read directly what Angel says about this. Part of my concern is that I have, and would like to continue, to share this post as an example of how so many trans folks are not on board with gender ideology and why, which I think Angel does articulate very clearly. If what I quote from Ute is inaccurate, I would be relieved, and it will also help me be better armed when I talk with folks about what Angel is saying, should they contest Angel’s credibility. I want also to apologize to you if I have jumped the gun here. It is so easy to fall into potholes!
Makes sense, absolutely, Susan! Mostly I'm addressing what Ute raised, little of which concerns me. Buck is not single-handedly responsible for the disappearance of lesbian bars. I spent a lot of time in them in the 90s; they're not here anymore, either. I don't know if he actively tried to get other women to transition, but it's worth asking him about, and I don't mind doing so. Even if he did, it wouldn't invalidate his op-ed, or what he's doing now. It would be one of his many stories of making mistakes in life. I did so many wrong things in my life, but none of that, I hope, takes away from what I'm doing now. Taking a post down is a form of cancellation, of holding people to impossible standards of moral purity. I want us as a culture to move away from that. You can like Buck's ideas and not like Buck. I happen to like him, but then again, I'm willing to commune with lots of other people. But the truth is, I'm very sensitive and when someone decides that I'm a bad person and a bad journalist, and has a super narrow range of normal, I can't really spend much time engaging. I'm in it for reform and for shifting the zeitgeist. That requires a broad tent.
Lisa, thank you so much. It means so much that you engage with all of this the way you do. I am interested in what Angel might say, but it also occurred to me, too, on reflection, that “even if he did, it wouldn't invalidate his op-ed, or what he's doing now. It would be one of his many stories of making mistakes in life. I did so many wrong things in my life, but none of that, I hope, takes away from what I'm doing now.” Let it be known that I did, too--and indeed still do, an object lesson for me of which is jumping the gun here, eg! This whole discussion has offered me yet another valuable lesson, all thanks to you--and now I have a better idea of how to talk about all this should I get similar pushback when pointing folks to this post.
Holy cow, Coastal, what gift this is! What a FABULOUS song--and those faces OMG! 💕🎵💕🎶💕🎼💕
Haha, OK, Coastal, this one’s for you: not Brandi Carlile, but I think she has potential 😎 https://youtu.be/sjvHWs3Vc58
Wow! So great and on the nose! Thanks for sharing.
I'm not sure my responses are models of curiosity and openness, though I completely understand Ute's response (even if I don't agree with it) and Susan's concerns!
I do love my readers, and want this to be a place where we can respectfully disagree and still commune. I'm hoping to have some more opportunities for that to happen on Zoom and in person. Working on it!
Susan, the disappearance of lesbian bars has to do with lesbians, there have never been a lot of lesbian bars to begin with. We are women and as such have different needs than biological men, in particular gay men, we nest and nurture as soon as we can. We find , wine and dine then call for the Uhaul. In Philadelphia there was one lesbian bar growing up, Hepburns and it eventually closed down. Then Sisters opened up, and I hear that eventually shut down. In Los Angeles there is NO lesbian bars, but there are thousands of Lesbians. Buck is not responsible for changing anyone but himself
Hey, Michelle: thanks for weighing in. as an “L” myself, I don’t have a strong opinion about this, but would only say there are a lot of different theories about the reasons behind the disappearance of the bars and also the increasing disappearance of any semblance of an L community, generally. In that regard, I am gratified by, and will be looking to, the Lesbian Project newly formed in the UK by Julie Bindel and Kathleen Stock for development of more information and for lifting up the concerns and needs of Ls, whatever they may be. However this all started out today, I think we ended up having a really good, nuanced discussion that looked at the issues initially raised from a variety of perspectives. I am all the more grateful to Lisa for providing such thought provoking posts and a place where we can gather to have such rich and open-ended conversations. That opportunity is rare indeed in this polarized environment.
FYI, for anyone interested, here is a link to the Lesbian Project website. https://www.thelesbianproject.co.uk/
Man. I am not encouraged by what appears to me to be an extreme anti-sex moral panic marching forth from both the far left and far right.
It is reasonable to criticize the nuttiest aspects of the trans-activist agenda. It is reasonable to question and criticize pornography. It is reasonable to call people to account for unacceptable sexual behavior (i.e. manipulation or coercion).
But some people seem to have been so hurt, or are so poisoned by religious nonsense, that they are seriously seeking to drive American sexual freedom off a cliff.
Know what? If someone didn't actual force a person into a sexual activity, the person involved ***must*** take responsibility for his or her own actions. It will not do for people to say, "I was afraid to say 'no'" or whatever. There are obviously horrific and terrible situations in which bad actors coerce or deceitfully (illegally) manipulate others into sexual activity. But those cases are the exception. People need to stop pretending that they can escape from personal responsibility by saying they were uncomfortable, or didn't "think" they could say no. Could you physically say no, without endangering yourself? Then you should have said no if you did not want to participate.
Really, America? Shall we try to push sexual freedom back under the ground? Would you, judgers and scolders, like to have ***your*** particular proclivities, whether "vanilla" or not, scrutinized and judged "bad"?
Stop it.
The trans diagnosis is by no means supported by the science, as demonstrated by the multiple expert witness testimonies from Dr. Stephen B. Levine, very easily accessed by an online search. "She does not want me to platform trans people?" Does Buck talk about this? the very sketchy "research" of the Dutch Protocols: 70 subjects, then suddenly 55 subjects, no explanations. Then 2 died. So, 53 subjects. Then we find out that the exit interviews were quite sketchy, not the same as the entry interviews. So, Ute's personal experience matches the sketchy science? Ute's story about a "therapist" relaying a demand of my husband that I pretend to "be a man" in bed to "satisfy" his desire to "be a woman" is something you diminish in this way? Really? Do you call yourself a feminist? I do not. You are influenced, brainwashed and indoctrinated by the "Gender Unicorn" which I say teachers should refuse to let into their classrooms. While I'd appreciate if you'd recognize I paid to even write one word here, while anyone can come on uteheggengrasswidow.wordpress.com and submit a comment for free and comment for free on my youtube channel, this is what you will live with, what your children will live with, if you continue to ignore science. The world in which White, upper middle class liberals have allowed this ideology, not supported by science, now rejected by Norway, Sweden, Finland and the UK, will live to see the violence of "Trans Day of Vengeance, Los Angeles" which happened, and rethink their values. It is not about "being angry" or "not liking" you. Just read my book already.
Don’t listen to the hate Lisa. You are doing great
I would actually go beyond saying that Lisa is doing great (with which I totally agree), to say, as I reflected on this whole discussion this morning, that what Lisa has provided here, and modeled herself, is a safe space in which we can learn together how to grapple with thorny problems, make room for disagreements, listen to a variety of points of view, and seek a way forward, together. Lisa’s Substack is the only place of which I am aware (though others may have examples, of course), that does not have the tendency to devolve down into an echo chamber. Yesterday’s discussion seemed to me a sterling example of this, and it is Lisa’s approach that makes it possible. Brava, Lisa, and I look forward to the next installment!
Penny: wonderfully succinct and goes right to the point. Thank you!