Off-ramps? Yes, people are great at self-justification. There are true believers and liberal-bubble-whatever believers. It will be interesting to see if true believers pedal backwards.
The oft-quoted Upton Sinclair:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon him not understanding it."
Perhaps it is unfortunate that it took legislation to prevent gender procedures on minors (in some states). Whatever it takes, I am fine with it. How can we expect the gender industry to police itself?
No to gender procedures on minors.
As for adults, it should not be covered by insurance--public or private.
Identity medicine is extreme cosmetic body modification.
I've long been an admirer of Carol Tarvis. Thank you for having her on. I think heard her on "On the Media" many years ago with Brook Gladstone. Now unfortunately, Gladstone has become a sellout - completely subservient to the larping trans males. Seemingly shameless. I wonder what will happen if/when this scam is brought down. Will she be recalcitrant, remorseful, dismissive, slippery? So many people damaged irreparable by the toxic trans lies. Will it be on their conscience or have they no conscience?
I love Carol Tavris. I have had the pleasure to meet her a few times, and listened in person to some wonderful talks she has given. Thanks for this. (And just in case Carol reads this - happy birthday! I just looked up how old she is, and she is 80 today.)
There should be no easy exit ramp for clinicians who visited egregious medical and surgical harm upon children in the name of an ideology unproven by even a semblance of rational science. What lessons would be learned if clinicians entrusted with the health and wellbeing of others, especially children, were allowed to slink away unscathed. Hammer the clinicians, the
medical institutions in which they thrive and the medical societies to which they belong. There was ample evidence to end this money making charade long ago.
Still need to finish watching but wanted to stop and say I’m glad that Lisa “pushed back” a bit on Carol saying that personal stories will have a big impact. Clearly that was not the effect on the “professionals” who saw and heard detransitioners.
In the vein of wise, thoughtful, intelligent women rising above the fray, here's the link to Louise Perry's interview with filmmaker, Vaishnavi Sundar, discussing the documentary of hers, Behind the Looking Glass, published at Lime Soda Films YT channel after 3 years in the making. Perry is surprisingly well informed and asks exactly the right questions. Today, I experienced this myself, as Emma and I (both of us appeared in BTLG) had the privilege of being interviewed about our work, our appearance in the film and our analyses of how a helping profession like psychology got it all wrong. This is scheduled for release at Maiden, Mother, Matriarch podcast in about 2 months. Listen to the women, not the women who think they're men like Buck Angel, but the women who know men cannot become us. Vaishnavi and Louise navigate the fraught and circuitous travails of women who divorce suddenly 24/7 crossdressing husbands, the sexual demands, as well as the fraught and circuitous path to documenting the shocking betrayals of the psychologists who invented "transsexualism" and "gender dysphoria" as diagnoses, excusing men for deceitful, violent and abusive behaviors:
Very interesting discussion, thank you. I was wondering what Carol had in mind when she spoke of "the excesses of JOK's practice". Does she believe the narrative of the NYTimes podcast that it's just a matter of having gone overboard, and there are actually some kids who should get this treatment? Rather than that the entire premise of "gender affirming care" is misguided? As Lisa said, the "true trans" kids are the proto-gay kids, and they aren't helped by this protocol either...
Similarly, what she said about McBride still seemed to miss the core of the problem. Yes, McBride comes across as eminently reasonable, but ultimately, he is still defending the concept that a men can be a women, and that their "female identity" should be respected and protected. Here again, I would say, the premise is flawed. Yes, of course "trans" people should not be discriminated against in housing or employment, or denied other civil rights, but that is not just what McBride wants. He still wants to get society to be willing to pretend that men can be women, and he is proposing that "humanizing" "trans" people by way of personal stories will get us there. While he seems reasonable and clearly understands he has to tread carefully to achieve his goals, he is still pursuing the radical project of having gender identity supersede biological sex, and he also still supports the transing of children (only the "true trans" ones, of course!). That makes him more dangerous to the goal of "ending" the current practices than someone like JOK, who says the quiet part out loud.
This was such a fascinating conversation. I've long admired Carol Tavris, and Lisa brought out what is so special about her -- the steel-trap mind and the huge erudition, but also the compassion and practical wisdom.
Believe it or not, there are still Stalinists who think Uncle Joe was a heroic figure who maybe went a little too far, so I'm sure many will go to their graves believing in the gendered soul. As we see with RFK Jr and his many followers, people can persuade themselves of anything. Germ theory? nonsense! Look at religion -- there's no evidence for any of it, yet people still believe it.
I do have one question. Many/most people who have gender-affirming treatments say they are happy with their new bodies and lives. I know several. Even the man Lisa mentions who wanted gender nullification so he could look like a Ken doll was happy with the results. So if dysphoria is cured by hormones and surgery, aren't hormones and surgery a valid treatment?
Are you calling patients to be more carefully vetted, or are you making a broader critique of the whole trans phenomenon?
The problem isn't JUST are THEY (trans) happy with it (their recast bodies and social roles). The real problem is a far-reaching political, social, cultural harm to over half the human race: what matter if millions of adolescent girls are too afraid, embarrassed, uncomfortable to use the bathroom at school? What matter if men are trying to breastfeed? What matter if males destroy women's sports? What matter if a man is elected head of the endometriosis society, the rape crisis center, the Battered Women’s shelter? What matter if males get women's scholarships and political set- asides? What matter if trans rapist/murderers have access to women prisoners?
If pedophiles are happy and satisfied to have access to child victims are we reluctant to stop them and deprive them of their
euphoria?? Or do we care more
for the potential victims and
call a halt to their behavior? Aren't women just as worthy of protection from the depredations of sexual impersonators?
A few thoughts regarding people being happy… many patients who are unhappy with their care never follow up with their doctor/clinic for various reasons, including shame or embarrassment. Also, many people do say they’re happy, for a few years at least. From what I’ve read, regret often sets in at the 7-10 year mark. But the bigger issue, to me at least, is why are we treating dysphoria- a mental issue- with hormones and surgery?
Thanks for a fascinating discussion.
Off-ramps? Yes, people are great at self-justification. There are true believers and liberal-bubble-whatever believers. It will be interesting to see if true believers pedal backwards.
The oft-quoted Upton Sinclair:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon him not understanding it."
Perhaps it is unfortunate that it took legislation to prevent gender procedures on minors (in some states). Whatever it takes, I am fine with it. How can we expect the gender industry to police itself?
No to gender procedures on minors.
As for adults, it should not be covered by insurance--public or private.
Identity medicine is extreme cosmetic body modification.
I've long been an admirer of Carol Tarvis. Thank you for having her on. I think heard her on "On the Media" many years ago with Brook Gladstone. Now unfortunately, Gladstone has become a sellout - completely subservient to the larping trans males. Seemingly shameless. I wonder what will happen if/when this scam is brought down. Will she be recalcitrant, remorseful, dismissive, slippery? So many people damaged irreparable by the toxic trans lies. Will it be on their conscience or have they no conscience?
I love Carol Tavris. I have had the pleasure to meet her a few times, and listened in person to some wonderful talks she has given. Thanks for this. (And just in case Carol reads this - happy birthday! I just looked up how old she is, and she is 80 today.)
There should be no easy exit ramp for clinicians who visited egregious medical and surgical harm upon children in the name of an ideology unproven by even a semblance of rational science. What lessons would be learned if clinicians entrusted with the health and wellbeing of others, especially children, were allowed to slink away unscathed. Hammer the clinicians, the
medical institutions in which they thrive and the medical societies to which they belong. There was ample evidence to end this money making charade long ago.
Wells Jacobson MD
Please share this interview about the family ramifications these doctors have chosen to ignore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Nfr3tA_hM
Still need to finish watching but wanted to stop and say I’m glad that Lisa “pushed back” a bit on Carol saying that personal stories will have a big impact. Clearly that was not the effect on the “professionals” who saw and heard detransitioners.
In a better world, the sex-change clinicians with the most to answer for would be sued into penury and stripped of their license to practice medicine.
In the vein of wise, thoughtful, intelligent women rising above the fray, here's the link to Louise Perry's interview with filmmaker, Vaishnavi Sundar, discussing the documentary of hers, Behind the Looking Glass, published at Lime Soda Films YT channel after 3 years in the making. Perry is surprisingly well informed and asks exactly the right questions. Today, I experienced this myself, as Emma and I (both of us appeared in BTLG) had the privilege of being interviewed about our work, our appearance in the film and our analyses of how a helping profession like psychology got it all wrong. This is scheduled for release at Maiden, Mother, Matriarch podcast in about 2 months. Listen to the women, not the women who think they're men like Buck Angel, but the women who know men cannot become us. Vaishnavi and Louise navigate the fraught and circuitous travails of women who divorce suddenly 24/7 crossdressing husbands, the sexual demands, as well as the fraught and circuitous path to documenting the shocking betrayals of the psychologists who invented "transsexualism" and "gender dysphoria" as diagnoses, excusing men for deceitful, violent and abusive behaviors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Nfr3tA_hM
Very interesting discussion, thank you. I was wondering what Carol had in mind when she spoke of "the excesses of JOK's practice". Does she believe the narrative of the NYTimes podcast that it's just a matter of having gone overboard, and there are actually some kids who should get this treatment? Rather than that the entire premise of "gender affirming care" is misguided? As Lisa said, the "true trans" kids are the proto-gay kids, and they aren't helped by this protocol either...
Similarly, what she said about McBride still seemed to miss the core of the problem. Yes, McBride comes across as eminently reasonable, but ultimately, he is still defending the concept that a men can be a women, and that their "female identity" should be respected and protected. Here again, I would say, the premise is flawed. Yes, of course "trans" people should not be discriminated against in housing or employment, or denied other civil rights, but that is not just what McBride wants. He still wants to get society to be willing to pretend that men can be women, and he is proposing that "humanizing" "trans" people by way of personal stories will get us there. While he seems reasonable and clearly understands he has to tread carefully to achieve his goals, he is still pursuing the radical project of having gender identity supersede biological sex, and he also still supports the transing of children (only the "true trans" ones, of course!). That makes him more dangerous to the goal of "ending" the current practices than someone like JOK, who says the quiet part out loud.
This was such a fascinating conversation. I've long admired Carol Tavris, and Lisa brought out what is so special about her -- the steel-trap mind and the huge erudition, but also the compassion and practical wisdom.
Believe it or not, there are still Stalinists who think Uncle Joe was a heroic figure who maybe went a little too far, so I'm sure many will go to their graves believing in the gendered soul. As we see with RFK Jr and his many followers, people can persuade themselves of anything. Germ theory? nonsense! Look at religion -- there's no evidence for any of it, yet people still believe it.
I do have one question. Many/most people who have gender-affirming treatments say they are happy with their new bodies and lives. I know several. Even the man Lisa mentions who wanted gender nullification so he could look like a Ken doll was happy with the results. So if dysphoria is cured by hormones and surgery, aren't hormones and surgery a valid treatment?
Are you calling patients to be more carefully vetted, or are you making a broader critique of the whole trans phenomenon?
Anyway, thanks for a really stimulating podcast!
The problem isn't JUST are THEY (trans) happy with it (their recast bodies and social roles). The real problem is a far-reaching political, social, cultural harm to over half the human race: what matter if millions of adolescent girls are too afraid, embarrassed, uncomfortable to use the bathroom at school? What matter if men are trying to breastfeed? What matter if males destroy women's sports? What matter if a man is elected head of the endometriosis society, the rape crisis center, the Battered Women’s shelter? What matter if males get women's scholarships and political set- asides? What matter if trans rapist/murderers have access to women prisoners?
If pedophiles are happy and satisfied to have access to child victims are we reluctant to stop them and deprive them of their
euphoria?? Or do we care more
for the potential victims and
call a halt to their behavior? Aren't women just as worthy of protection from the depredations of sexual impersonators?
A few thoughts regarding people being happy… many patients who are unhappy with their care never follow up with their doctor/clinic for various reasons, including shame or embarrassment. Also, many people do say they’re happy, for a few years at least. From what I’ve read, regret often sets in at the 7-10 year mark. But the bigger issue, to me at least, is why are we treating dysphoria- a mental issue- with hormones and surgery?