Additional recommendation which echoes what Lisa covers here: see Michael Shermer Show (Lisa, have you been a guest of his yet?) The Michael Shermer Show
Amanda Knox: Life After the Crime That Wasn’t Hers
After being cleared, this woman actually sought out the prosecutor who railroaded her into a conviction for murder . . . for a series of civil conversations . . . It seems to me the universal human conceit underlying all these coercive methods to change someone's mind is that it is a worthy project to manipulate and mould another person's innermost thoughts. It may be laudable to lay before any given suffering person a feast of useful truths, but we all should beware our tendency to slip into the delusion that force is the same thing as persuasion. (You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink . . . or at least, you shouldn't.) Force against another human being is, at its core, evil. Sometimes it's a necessary and pragmatic evil, when it comes to restraining the verifiably destructive actions of a given individual against others comprising the society within which he lives. (The police have always been a blunt tool, it is true. ) But I think those who determine public policy need to be clear about the moral Roulette we play when we embark upon routinizing (institutionalizing) any act of force against another human mind -- even for the most laudable of reasons. It is territory our mental health professionals, our police, our educational institutions, etc., etc., should learn to recognize as, more often than not, deeply unethical, destructive, and counterproductive. The unintended consequences of this sort of social engineering are quite the opposite of the human flourishing we all desire.
Is there a place for actual truth in these discussions?
If someone says they are going to have surgery to remove part of their reproductive system next week because that will make them a true man/woman, or that it is fine to have sex with a child because kids really are ok with it, and again they are planning it next week....
Someone has decided they can fly if they want it enough and are planning to leap out the 5th story window...
Someone has decided that a man/woman who said "no" really didn't mean it and they are going to press their advances on them...
This isn't the question you two answered but it is a big question hanging over all of this!
Mind blowing indeed, thank you so much for this conversation Lisa, I found so many useful things in it
I had no idea of the actual nature of the open process behind the APA task force in considering benefits as well as harm of reparative therapies, who knew? All we ever were told was that it didn’t work and was harmful, that’s all you need to know about it
Also I am so happy to hear an actual colleague whose work overlaps with my area (I’m a psychologist and specialist in clinical sexuality) talking this way on these issues, it is unheard of these days I can assure you, where therapist as social change agent is the norm and no space is held for dissonant views, it really is very counter therapeutic for clients as you both agreed
I’m not surprised his bridge building project hasn’t gained much traction but it really should be disseminated more widely and I will find a way to share this resource where I can
I loved your “aha” moment when you said you hadn’t thought about being politically homeless as a minority stress experience—that really resonates with me too I found it so therapeutic to be offered that compassion and understanding this was really helpful and buoyed my spirits 🙏👍
What a fabulous conversation, Lisa! If Lee doesn't know them already, he should really connect with Andrew Hartz and the folks at Open Therapy Institute, and with Braver Angels. All of a very similar mindset!
I'd love to hear what this therapist thinks trans widows go through. Many "affirming" practitioners actually claim we enjoy being made to pretend we're male, using "toys" to be male organs in a sex life that just turned degrading. Does she know that women who endured this for as long as 10 years do leave the marriage finally, to tell the story of being coerced, sexually assaulted and insulted, as demonstrated by the data I collect, now with 68 trans widows' experiences collected? I declined to even "give it a try" when my ex-husband's therapist made these suggestions. I almost agreed to a Daily Mail profile recently--when the editors pressured the reporter to ask my shoe size to get me some high heels for their photos, I pulled out. Sometimes I wish I had let them talk me into that, because perhaps she would have heard of trans widows and exploitation the mental health practitioners foist on us.
Here's Ophelia, one who stayed and endured his violence for a decade.
Additional recommendation which echoes what Lisa covers here: see Michael Shermer Show (Lisa, have you been a guest of his yet?) The Michael Shermer Show
Amanda Knox: Life After the Crime That Wasn’t Hers
April 15, 2025
https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-michael/amanda-knox-life-after-the-oZ5gOqsXUiw/
After being cleared, this woman actually sought out the prosecutor who railroaded her into a conviction for murder . . . for a series of civil conversations . . . It seems to me the universal human conceit underlying all these coercive methods to change someone's mind is that it is a worthy project to manipulate and mould another person's innermost thoughts. It may be laudable to lay before any given suffering person a feast of useful truths, but we all should beware our tendency to slip into the delusion that force is the same thing as persuasion. (You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink . . . or at least, you shouldn't.) Force against another human being is, at its core, evil. Sometimes it's a necessary and pragmatic evil, when it comes to restraining the verifiably destructive actions of a given individual against others comprising the society within which he lives. (The police have always been a blunt tool, it is true. ) But I think those who determine public policy need to be clear about the moral Roulette we play when we embark upon routinizing (institutionalizing) any act of force against another human mind -- even for the most laudable of reasons. It is territory our mental health professionals, our police, our educational institutions, etc., etc., should learn to recognize as, more often than not, deeply unethical, destructive, and counterproductive. The unintended consequences of this sort of social engineering are quite the opposite of the human flourishing we all desire.
Is there a place for actual truth in these discussions?
If someone says they are going to have surgery to remove part of their reproductive system next week because that will make them a true man/woman, or that it is fine to have sex with a child because kids really are ok with it, and again they are planning it next week....
Someone has decided they can fly if they want it enough and are planning to leap out the 5th story window...
Someone has decided that a man/woman who said "no" really didn't mean it and they are going to press their advances on them...
This isn't the question you two answered but it is a big question hanging over all of this!
Mind blowing indeed, thank you so much for this conversation Lisa, I found so many useful things in it
I had no idea of the actual nature of the open process behind the APA task force in considering benefits as well as harm of reparative therapies, who knew? All we ever were told was that it didn’t work and was harmful, that’s all you need to know about it
Also I am so happy to hear an actual colleague whose work overlaps with my area (I’m a psychologist and specialist in clinical sexuality) talking this way on these issues, it is unheard of these days I can assure you, where therapist as social change agent is the norm and no space is held for dissonant views, it really is very counter therapeutic for clients as you both agreed
I’m not surprised his bridge building project hasn’t gained much traction but it really should be disseminated more widely and I will find a way to share this resource where I can
I loved your “aha” moment when you said you hadn’t thought about being politically homeless as a minority stress experience—that really resonates with me too I found it so therapeutic to be offered that compassion and understanding this was really helpful and buoyed my spirits 🙏👍
What a fabulous conversation, Lisa! If Lee doesn't know them already, he should really connect with Andrew Hartz and the folks at Open Therapy Institute, and with Braver Angels. All of a very similar mindset!
I gave it 10 minutes, but it seems to be all about the pre-Trump days.
Those days are gone, and their experiences not very relevant.
“Enemies” are so so so much more polarized now.
I'd love to hear what this therapist thinks trans widows go through. Many "affirming" practitioners actually claim we enjoy being made to pretend we're male, using "toys" to be male organs in a sex life that just turned degrading. Does she know that women who endured this for as long as 10 years do leave the marriage finally, to tell the story of being coerced, sexually assaulted and insulted, as demonstrated by the data I collect, now with 68 trans widows' experiences collected? I declined to even "give it a try" when my ex-husband's therapist made these suggestions. I almost agreed to a Daily Mail profile recently--when the editors pressured the reporter to ask my shoe size to get me some high heels for their photos, I pulled out. Sometimes I wish I had let them talk me into that, because perhaps she would have heard of trans widows and exploitation the mental health practitioners foist on us.
Here's Ophelia, one who stayed and endured his violence for a decade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41SJjninDwo&list=PLOFlPPQm71IgFGCRHe5VxMtDlq1qtJQCy&index=3