Lisa, since you're in NYC I assume a lot of these bathroom police you encounter are liberals who support "LGBTQ" rights. It's fascinating that short haired little girls are not even on their radar. Seems like LGBTQ activists are failing to educate the public about something very basic (while instead educating us on ridiculous made up ideas like sex being a spectrum).
Hey, GG, may I add a friendly amendment to your comment? As an old gay woman, I recall fondly when I myself was one of those short-haired little girls. There is actually no such thing as the LGBTQ+alphabet soup community, any more than there is a “Hispanic” or “people of color” community, and whoever these activists are, they do not speak for me and a whole lot of old gay women I know.
I'm a gay woman too and agree, that's why I put lgbtq in scare quotes :) I use the term to describe the activists because that's what they call themselves and I don't know how else to refer to them that's not, like, incendiary.
GG, hey, sister traveler, great to make your acquaintance. I missed the scare quotes--and this made me laugh out loud: "I don't know how else to refer to them that's not, like, incendiary." I know the feeling--I once, in a comment to a local official, referred to them as "trans activist grifters." Bombs seemed to have gone off in his office when I did that!
As a mother, a sometimes tomboy, a trans widow and a newly self-defined centrist, I think your approach in terms of your daughter is the best path. When she hits adolescence, she may suddenly and unexpectedly "get girly." It's been known to happen. I'm not promoting it, just have seen it in my former students and childhood friends.
The problem we have here, the elephant in the room, is the instability of the diagnosis itself. We've seen Ray Blanchard make strict categorizations; AGP, heterosexual transsexual &etc. We've seen "drag" = trans in recent years. This is corrupt, inappropriate influence of the surgeries and pharma industry, who fund the Arcus Foundation, who fund "educators" who are usually newly "transitioned" and get paid to go into schools promoting various identities. It used to be that who went into schools was a super vetted process. The "virtuousness" of these groups is touted for no good reason.
When I taught Kindergarten, I omitted obviously sexist activities and mixed work and play groups up in terms of boys, girls, extroverts and introverts. I asked parents of girls to stop dressing their child like a princess--we work at school. The influence of Hollywood and Disney on "liberals" is still astonishing to me.
Ute Heggen, author, In the Curated Woods, True Tales from a Grass Widow (iuniverse, 2022)
I appreciate this post. GCs who support the right of women to police single sex spaces need to remember that masculine women can face harassment in those spaces. The other place I've seen this issue come up is with female detransitioners. We have to embrace the nuance that sometimes people will need to use a bathroom where they cause less of a fuss. (Also remembering when Blaire White did a stunt of using the men's room in a bar and was kicked out for it.) And having true third spaces (not calling women's restrooms "all gender") could be an option for those who would face a hassle anywhere else.
Jan 18, 2023·edited Jan 18, 2023Liked by Lisa Selin Davis
Masculine women would face much less harrassment if it were much less likely that they were actually men invading a women's single-sex space, and that would be much less likely if it was against the law for a man to be in a women's single-sex space.
This is key. The old status quo was pretty much the situation as happened to Lisa's daughter -- someone can raise an alarm if they think a man is in the women's, but the woman would clear up the situation, and all was fine. Additionally people usually gave benefit of the doubt because why would a male ever want to be in the women's?
But now there are people actively trying to erode the boundaries of sex, insisting that we should never question if we see a (presumed) male in the women's, while at the same time attempting to go into the women's room as males. So women no longer trust that people they see in the women's room are female, and are on hyper alert. But it is not their fault for being hyper alert, the blame is on those who continually try to erode the boundary. (Not people who are gender non-conforming, but people who insist that SEX is something to be identified into.)
We also could be much more gender neutral in general. It is increasingly common now in many places to just have single-occupancy restrooms that aren't tied to any specific general, since the question is moot in such places. That probably doesn't apply to locker rooms like in the current article, but it might be a direction push things on the margin.
Most new construction in the US has these "single toilet" unisex bathrooms now, and I definitely appreciate them. It's great for people who have a kid with them, need to help someone else in the bathroom, or... traveling alone with a lot of luggage they want behind a locked door while they pee. Or need room to change clothes when the weather changes suddenly. All kinds of reasons.
Thing is there's people who are purposely looking for "validation" as their "preferred gender" who still refuse to use those because dammit, they want in the women's, even though everyone can tell they're male. But I think it would definitely fit the needs of a lot of regular sincere people.
Meanwhile people occasionally say "hey there's stalls in bathrooms, just have unisex bathrooms always" but usually those people aren't from the US with the absolutely flimsy excuses for doors, huge gaps under the door and on both sides. If the stalls were properly enclosed, maybe...
masculine women are facing harassment? nope. never happened. gender ideology erases the rights of a half a doz groups. women are just one of these groups. i realise that misogynists pushing this mens rights movement love to villianise women and pretend its only old hags that are preventing men from turning bathrooms into amusement parks , but theyre not the only one affected by gender ideology. gender ideology robs women of their right to safe spaces. 99% of people who attack women are men. this includes men who id as womem. are all men bad? of course not. but the ones that are dont wear a sign
I want to think about this more and try and meet the challenge of some of Lisa’s questions--but right off, I wanted to say how much I appreciate this post: no lazy thinking allowed! Lisa, you have done it again. So very grateful for your voice (and PS, your letter the the editor to the NY Times was perfect--now they need to give you a guest essay spot, as they did today with Jesse Singal).
I’m sorry people have been confrontational with your daughter.
As distressed as I am over the gender cult taking over the world I think, what am I to learn here? I think it’s , ok more gender non conformity. David Bowie, Grace Jones, ok gotcha. I know that. I respect that. It’s Free to Be, it’s any message that says wear whatever you like. I’m in despair when I hear-- and I do-- that a little girl is goi g on puberty blockers because she says “ I’m a boy” and wears “ boy” clothes
Maybe we need a flag. I’m so so tired of the performative flags of lgbtq etc but they are ubiquitous. A female flag that shows everything from lumber jacks to ballet dancers. That says the experience of a woman is vast. I can feel very butch and other time love a silk teddy. Young people need to know that is all part of their natural biological sex. Boys too get their flag. GI joes or make up and bright colors. They are all men.
It’s hard bc I raised my kid to express themselves freely, but the gender cult still nabbed them. Just not sure how deep it will go.
Hey, Da Ba, I love this idea, too. And indeed, as an old gay woman, I would like the Pride flag, which to my mind has been desecrated beyond redemption, thrown into the trash. (There is actually no such thing as the LGBTQ+alphabet soup community, any more than there is a “Hispanic” or “people of color” community.)
You wonder 'what the attendant meant by “his gender.”' What she meant was the child's sex. It's astonishing and dismaying how quickly we have gone from using the word "sex" to denote the males and females of our species—as we do for all other mammals and many other animals—to using the squishy word "gender."
Everyone, from the government to the medical establishment, is now using this term, as if "sex" is a dirty word not to be used in polite company. I actually think that's why a lot of people avoid it, because of its other meaning; they think "gender" is somehow more genteel. Most people, like this pool attendant, don't realize that they're using a word that has no consensus as to its meaning.
It seems easy enough to limit bathrooms by sex—as we have for centuries—and just explain, on those rare occasions when mis-sexing occurs, "Actually I am [or my daughter is] female."
Ava, this is a really good point about language choice. I think there’s some pretty strong evidence that originally, “gender” was indeed considered synonymous with “sex,” just a more “gentile” term for it. Even these days, I often see in news report use of the terms as interchangeable. I do believe we would likely all be better served by excising the word “gender” completely, if that were only possible! It has come to mean everything, and therefore nothing. It’s really hard to see how we get out of this deep ditch.
The most obvious example of this "genteel" use of the word gender when one means sex is the "gender reveal" party. Those parties do not reveal the fetus's GENDER; they reveal its SEX.
You are so amazingly nuanced in your positions, Lisa. I remember finding your blog through Google while researching one of my detransition-related Tweets, and after months of little glances into your world by email, I've finally bit the bullet and subscribed. I dunno if "bit the bullet" is even the right word, because your work truly is brilliant and worth throwing money at — but I'm sure you get what I mean.
Not too long ago, actually, I shared your Heterodox Zander Keig podcast episode with an angry Redditor. Said Redditor, instead of responding to my genuine concern for the diversity of trans and gender non-conforming experience, proceeded to jump past Keig's dialogue and thumb their nose at your being a "notable TERF."
Reading this article, I'm astonished (but unfortunately not surprised) that people can make such an incorrect generalization about your work. I mean, you're rather trans-inclusive. You get that you can't control people or their beliefs about themselves. You understand the grey area of the bathroom debate, as well as the harm it perpetuates against gender non-conformity in general.
I hope that one day, very soon, I have the courage and ability to pull my thoughts together and speak my mind as you have. Given my lived experience as someone who went through years of hormones, suffered massive complications post-mastectomy, and identified as trans for nearly a decade — I without a doubt have so, so much to say. It takes a great amount of courage, though, to put yourself out there, into this world where people are ignorant, scared, and ready to fight at a moment's notice.
This is very nice of you to say. It does pain me to hear that someone is calling me a "notable TERF." I mean, I'm not that notable, and I don't identify as a TERF. There are many trans people, both currently identifying as such and detransitioned, who will support you. I'm sure you know who they are but if not, happy to put you in touch if you need more people to commune with!
Glad your daughter has a good mother like you. And her dad seems good too. Reminds me of a quote, I can't remember who from, something like "There may not be hope for the whole world, but there is still hope for small pieces of it." Your family is one of those pieces. Good for you, and thanks, Lisa!
This is a very thoughtful and thought-provoking essay. I think that discussions revolving around sex and gender would be helped if we could just get the biology & psychology straightened out. Unfortunately, much of the debate is driven by simplistic — almost childlike — models of biology, and naïve understandings about biological 'causation.' These are the points that I recently made in “There is ‘Biological Evidence for Gender Identity...’ but it’s not what you think”
Without clarity, the debates will simply keep circling around the same issues without hope of resolution.
Another important factor is the simple loss of courtesy, compassion, and civility. I do not know if that will ever return. I, for one, am tired of reading essays whose only message is something like this: "Watch me unmercifully criticize someone I don't agree with." (I don't like this even when I agree with the author.) I'm equally as tired of people saying, in essence, "I don't care how you feel, I'm going to do whatever I want!"
It seems to me that we need more calm, reasoned voices like yours. Maybe I'm too much of an idealist. Thank you for writing this piece, Frederick
I am still thinking about this piece, and I think that will go on for a long time. I have two, somewhat contradictory, thoughts that I thought I’d put out here, to add to the discussion:
First, Lisa and her daughter absolutely should not be subjected to the kinds of experiences Lisa has described. While I do think single sex space expectations of privacy are fair to have, including in bathrooms, in the case of children, a child who is possibly in the wrong bathroom should not a priori be assumed to be a threat, even mischievous younger boys trying to “sneak in” where they know they’re not supposed to be--though, in the latter case, aI think it would be fair enough for a Momlike intervention to send them on their way. If a child is accompanied by his/her mother, then the presumption should be that neither the parent nor the child is doing anything wrong. This doesn’t answer the question at all, of course, about how to best address wrong assumptions in the case of gender-nonconforming children. They will happen, and they will need to be dealt with somehow, but overall, the person with the concern should find a way to voice it, if they really feel they must, in the gentlest, least offensive way, with utmost regard for the child’s feelings, and with the awareness that they might well be wrong.
Now, turning to adults--and I would also add teenagers--the issues are different. I don’t think any man should be able to self-ID his way into a single sex space intended for women (and by this I mean biological women). That is simply a matter of respecting women’s privacy, and also recognizing that women have a multitude of valid causes for concern about any man would want to do that, including what this does to a woman’s sense of safety. Men should respect that boundary, period. In the case of public bathrooms, I don’t see any valid reason for breaching it, particularly as single stall unisex bathrooms are an easy fix to avoid this problem. This doesn’t mean the boundary can be so easily policed, but rather that we can avoid a whole lot of trouble if men are taught, unequivocally, that they must respect women’s privacy boundaries, that self ID cannot excuse any breach, and that a woman’s objection must not only be allowed, but honored, if a breach occurs and is recognized. Now, what about a woman who seems, to the objecting person, to be a man? Here, the best I can say is, the objector should try the best she can to be certain of the person’s sex, and if not certain, tread softly, unless she truly, truly believes she is under threat. A quick exchange in such a case might resolve the matter simply. Also, speaking as someone with direct experience of being mistaken for the opposite sex, it is just a given that it’s necessary to be alert that this might happen and have ready what to say. It’s not perfect, but I think the balance has to be in this direction. It’s self ID, I think, that is throwing all of this totally out of whack.
"For those of you who want girls to use the girls’ room and boys to use the boys’ room, how do you propose we minimize the anger, and, yes, sometimes even violence—actual violence—directed at gender nonconforming people? "
The reason your daughter was accosted is precisely because we now allow men (and "trans" "women" are men) in what were formerly women's spaces. Stop allowing that, go back to the old rule of strict separation, and appearane will matter much less.
"If boys aren’t allowed to transition before puberty strikes, their penchants for women’s clothing, or to have a female-like body, will still be there, and they’ll never “pass.” "
How do you know that their gender dysphoria "will still be there"? Pre-puberty gender dysphoria, as you must know, more often desists than persists.
And there is NO DIAGNOSTIC to separate the persisters from the desisters. No one knows how to tell one from the other.
GIVEN THAT FACT, it is immoral and unethical to perform ANY SORT of medical transition on any child.
Why you want to mutilate and sterilize children whose future feelings YOU DO NOT KNOW is an absolute mystery to me.
If you’re actually asking for a response…I don’t think all AGPs have gender dysphoria but I do think their desires are less likely to desist, considering that until recently most transsexuals were middle aged men. I’m talking about that population in that particular sentence
Which sentence? You wrote "If boys aren’t allowed to transition before puberty strikes", how does that refer to middle-aged men?
AFAIK, you still support sterilizing drugs and mutilating surgery for children with gender dysphoria, provided that their parents have been sufficiently gaslit by Big Trans to go along with it. Is that not correct?
If it is correct, you are in the moral and ethical wrong. Sterilizing and mutilating children is a crime against humanity, period.
Are you for or against laws that forbid drugs and/or surgery for gender dysphoric children?
IMO, such laws simply prevent quack treatment, much as laws that require proof that a drug is both safe and effective before it can be legally marketed.
I honestly think it was the start of a very slippery slope when the first surgeon performed a "sex change operation" on an adult male. Even AGP is a psychological problem and shouldn't have been viewed as "fixable" with surgeries. People know it's wrong to let body dysmorphia sufferers have their limbs cut off, so why is it ever okay to cut off a person's sex organs? But SRS has been allowed for years because adults have been allowed to choose it and you can't say no to an adult. Now the same illogical and drastic surgeries have come after the children and no one can figure how to stop them.
Are you saying that AGP starts in boyhood? I’m surprised if so, because I thought AGP was fetish-based, which I would assume is something that only develops after puberty. (I’m genuinely asking.)
When I was a masculine presenting teen girl and woman ( 1980-2004), I regularly encountered harsh, threatening, and on occasion violent reactions from other girls and women in public restrooms. This was way before the more recent issue you're asserting. Strong reactions to gender nonconforming females is not a new phenomenon.
"Making room for gender diversity also means accepting autogynephilic trans women and cross-dressers."
AGP ppl are already fully accepted. but they shouldnt use the womens room. one reason is that males who presenting as women is a choice. its a choice they get a thrill from. agp is more like drinking alcohol or using drugs. its a high. it has nothing in common with immutable characteristics like race, sex, sexuality. persons who lie claiming that acting out agp in public isnt a choice are really part of a mens rights movement that erases the rights of a half a doz groups.
gender ideology actually reduces diversity, not increases it. tom boys are told they may actually be boys. feminine boys are told they may actually be girls. this has the affect of forcing kids and people into stereotypical gender norms. it has the opposite effect of gender diversity. also, gender biz polcies that have been enacted worldwide lie to kids tell them that identification as opposite gender will solve every normal kid issue. in reality it harms them more than it helps. the governments of UK, sweden finland did reviews and found gender meds dont help anything - they dont help dysphoria, mental health, social functioning , nothing nada ziltch. what these policies do do is create life long medical patients from kids who otherwise grow out of their issues. but once theyre on the meds they have tons of new problems. this is the result of supporting the mens rights movement and big biz fraud called gender ideology
this story is complete fiction. just another made up scenario to support the mens rights movement called gender ideology. 99% of people who attack women are men. thats why women need private spaces that dont include bio men. theres no evidence that men who id as women are less violent or commit less crimes than other men.
theres no reason why men who id as women cant use the mens room. they are safer there. theres never been an incident in the mens room with men in drag. the reason is other men couldnt care less if their in there. men in drag would be one of the least unusual people in the mens room. stop the gaslighting
Lisa, since you're in NYC I assume a lot of these bathroom police you encounter are liberals who support "LGBTQ" rights. It's fascinating that short haired little girls are not even on their radar. Seems like LGBTQ activists are failing to educate the public about something very basic (while instead educating us on ridiculous made up ideas like sex being a spectrum).
Hey, GG, may I add a friendly amendment to your comment? As an old gay woman, I recall fondly when I myself was one of those short-haired little girls. There is actually no such thing as the LGBTQ+alphabet soup community, any more than there is a “Hispanic” or “people of color” community, and whoever these activists are, they do not speak for me and a whole lot of old gay women I know.
I'm a gay woman too and agree, that's why I put lgbtq in scare quotes :) I use the term to describe the activists because that's what they call themselves and I don't know how else to refer to them that's not, like, incendiary.
GG, hey, sister traveler, great to make your acquaintance. I missed the scare quotes--and this made me laugh out loud: "I don't know how else to refer to them that's not, like, incendiary." I know the feeling--I once, in a comment to a local official, referred to them as "trans activist grifters." Bombs seemed to have gone off in his office when I did that!
Awesome!
As a mother, a sometimes tomboy, a trans widow and a newly self-defined centrist, I think your approach in terms of your daughter is the best path. When she hits adolescence, she may suddenly and unexpectedly "get girly." It's been known to happen. I'm not promoting it, just have seen it in my former students and childhood friends.
The problem we have here, the elephant in the room, is the instability of the diagnosis itself. We've seen Ray Blanchard make strict categorizations; AGP, heterosexual transsexual &etc. We've seen "drag" = trans in recent years. This is corrupt, inappropriate influence of the surgeries and pharma industry, who fund the Arcus Foundation, who fund "educators" who are usually newly "transitioned" and get paid to go into schools promoting various identities. It used to be that who went into schools was a super vetted process. The "virtuousness" of these groups is touted for no good reason.
When I taught Kindergarten, I omitted obviously sexist activities and mixed work and play groups up in terms of boys, girls, extroverts and introverts. I asked parents of girls to stop dressing their child like a princess--we work at school. The influence of Hollywood and Disney on "liberals" is still astonishing to me.
Ute Heggen, author, In the Curated Woods, True Tales from a Grass Widow (iuniverse, 2022)
I appreciate this post. GCs who support the right of women to police single sex spaces need to remember that masculine women can face harassment in those spaces. The other place I've seen this issue come up is with female detransitioners. We have to embrace the nuance that sometimes people will need to use a bathroom where they cause less of a fuss. (Also remembering when Blaire White did a stunt of using the men's room in a bar and was kicked out for it.) And having true third spaces (not calling women's restrooms "all gender") could be an option for those who would face a hassle anywhere else.
Masculine women would face much less harrassment if it were much less likely that they were actually men invading a women's single-sex space, and that would be much less likely if it was against the law for a man to be in a women's single-sex space.
This is key. The old status quo was pretty much the situation as happened to Lisa's daughter -- someone can raise an alarm if they think a man is in the women's, but the woman would clear up the situation, and all was fine. Additionally people usually gave benefit of the doubt because why would a male ever want to be in the women's?
But now there are people actively trying to erode the boundaries of sex, insisting that we should never question if we see a (presumed) male in the women's, while at the same time attempting to go into the women's room as males. So women no longer trust that people they see in the women's room are female, and are on hyper alert. But it is not their fault for being hyper alert, the blame is on those who continually try to erode the boundary. (Not people who are gender non-conforming, but people who insist that SEX is something to be identified into.)
We also could be much more gender neutral in general. It is increasingly common now in many places to just have single-occupancy restrooms that aren't tied to any specific general, since the question is moot in such places. That probably doesn't apply to locker rooms like in the current article, but it might be a direction push things on the margin.
Most new construction in the US has these "single toilet" unisex bathrooms now, and I definitely appreciate them. It's great for people who have a kid with them, need to help someone else in the bathroom, or... traveling alone with a lot of luggage they want behind a locked door while they pee. Or need room to change clothes when the weather changes suddenly. All kinds of reasons.
Thing is there's people who are purposely looking for "validation" as their "preferred gender" who still refuse to use those because dammit, they want in the women's, even though everyone can tell they're male. But I think it would definitely fit the needs of a lot of regular sincere people.
Meanwhile people occasionally say "hey there's stalls in bathrooms, just have unisex bathrooms always" but usually those people aren't from the US with the absolutely flimsy excuses for doors, huge gaps under the door and on both sides. If the stalls were properly enclosed, maybe...
masculine women are facing harassment? nope. never happened. gender ideology erases the rights of a half a doz groups. women are just one of these groups. i realise that misogynists pushing this mens rights movement love to villianise women and pretend its only old hags that are preventing men from turning bathrooms into amusement parks , but theyre not the only one affected by gender ideology. gender ideology robs women of their right to safe spaces. 99% of people who attack women are men. this includes men who id as womem. are all men bad? of course not. but the ones that are dont wear a sign
I want to think about this more and try and meet the challenge of some of Lisa’s questions--but right off, I wanted to say how much I appreciate this post: no lazy thinking allowed! Lisa, you have done it again. So very grateful for your voice (and PS, your letter the the editor to the NY Times was perfect--now they need to give you a guest essay spot, as they did today with Jesse Singal).
Thank you for your reliably sane voice and questions. You bring me back from the brink every time you publish!
I’m sorry people have been confrontational with your daughter.
As distressed as I am over the gender cult taking over the world I think, what am I to learn here? I think it’s , ok more gender non conformity. David Bowie, Grace Jones, ok gotcha. I know that. I respect that. It’s Free to Be, it’s any message that says wear whatever you like. I’m in despair when I hear-- and I do-- that a little girl is goi g on puberty blockers because she says “ I’m a boy” and wears “ boy” clothes
Maybe we need a flag. I’m so so tired of the performative flags of lgbtq etc but they are ubiquitous. A female flag that shows everything from lumber jacks to ballet dancers. That says the experience of a woman is vast. I can feel very butch and other time love a silk teddy. Young people need to know that is all part of their natural biological sex. Boys too get their flag. GI joes or make up and bright colors. They are all men.
It’s hard bc I raised my kid to express themselves freely, but the gender cult still nabbed them. Just not sure how deep it will go.
I love this idea.
Hey, Da Ba, I love this idea, too. And indeed, as an old gay woman, I would like the Pride flag, which to my mind has been desecrated beyond redemption, thrown into the trash. (There is actually no such thing as the LGBTQ+alphabet soup community, any more than there is a “Hispanic” or “people of color” community.)
You wonder 'what the attendant meant by “his gender.”' What she meant was the child's sex. It's astonishing and dismaying how quickly we have gone from using the word "sex" to denote the males and females of our species—as we do for all other mammals and many other animals—to using the squishy word "gender."
Everyone, from the government to the medical establishment, is now using this term, as if "sex" is a dirty word not to be used in polite company. I actually think that's why a lot of people avoid it, because of its other meaning; they think "gender" is somehow more genteel. Most people, like this pool attendant, don't realize that they're using a word that has no consensus as to its meaning.
It seems easy enough to limit bathrooms by sex—as we have for centuries—and just explain, on those rare occasions when mis-sexing occurs, "Actually I am [or my daughter is] female."
Ava, this is a really good point about language choice. I think there’s some pretty strong evidence that originally, “gender” was indeed considered synonymous with “sex,” just a more “gentile” term for it. Even these days, I often see in news report use of the terms as interchangeable. I do believe we would likely all be better served by excising the word “gender” completely, if that were only possible! It has come to mean everything, and therefore nothing. It’s really hard to see how we get out of this deep ditch.
The most obvious example of this "genteel" use of the word gender when one means sex is the "gender reveal" party. Those parties do not reveal the fetus's GENDER; they reveal its SEX.
Haha, spellcheck (or maybe it was a senior moment 🥳) foiled me--that should not have been “gentile,” but “genteel”!
You are so amazingly nuanced in your positions, Lisa. I remember finding your blog through Google while researching one of my detransition-related Tweets, and after months of little glances into your world by email, I've finally bit the bullet and subscribed. I dunno if "bit the bullet" is even the right word, because your work truly is brilliant and worth throwing money at — but I'm sure you get what I mean.
Not too long ago, actually, I shared your Heterodox Zander Keig podcast episode with an angry Redditor. Said Redditor, instead of responding to my genuine concern for the diversity of trans and gender non-conforming experience, proceeded to jump past Keig's dialogue and thumb their nose at your being a "notable TERF."
Reading this article, I'm astonished (but unfortunately not surprised) that people can make such an incorrect generalization about your work. I mean, you're rather trans-inclusive. You get that you can't control people or their beliefs about themselves. You understand the grey area of the bathroom debate, as well as the harm it perpetuates against gender non-conformity in general.
I hope that one day, very soon, I have the courage and ability to pull my thoughts together and speak my mind as you have. Given my lived experience as someone who went through years of hormones, suffered massive complications post-mastectomy, and identified as trans for nearly a decade — I without a doubt have so, so much to say. It takes a great amount of courage, though, to put yourself out there, into this world where people are ignorant, scared, and ready to fight at a moment's notice.
Keep up the awesome work.
This is very nice of you to say. It does pain me to hear that someone is calling me a "notable TERF." I mean, I'm not that notable, and I don't identify as a TERF. There are many trans people, both currently identifying as such and detransitioned, who will support you. I'm sure you know who they are but if not, happy to put you in touch if you need more people to commune with!
Glad your daughter has a good mother like you. And her dad seems good too. Reminds me of a quote, I can't remember who from, something like "There may not be hope for the whole world, but there is still hope for small pieces of it." Your family is one of those pieces. Good for you, and thanks, Lisa!
I so appreciate your compassion and nuance. I'm with you.
This is a very thoughtful and thought-provoking essay. I think that discussions revolving around sex and gender would be helped if we could just get the biology & psychology straightened out. Unfortunately, much of the debate is driven by simplistic — almost childlike — models of biology, and naïve understandings about biological 'causation.' These are the points that I recently made in “There is ‘Biological Evidence for Gender Identity...’ but it’s not what you think”
https://everythingisbiology.substack.com/p/there-is-biological-evidence-for
Without clarity, the debates will simply keep circling around the same issues without hope of resolution.
Another important factor is the simple loss of courtesy, compassion, and civility. I do not know if that will ever return. I, for one, am tired of reading essays whose only message is something like this: "Watch me unmercifully criticize someone I don't agree with." (I don't like this even when I agree with the author.) I'm equally as tired of people saying, in essence, "I don't care how you feel, I'm going to do whatever I want!"
It seems to me that we need more calm, reasoned voices like yours. Maybe I'm too much of an idealist. Thank you for writing this piece, Frederick
I am still thinking about this piece, and I think that will go on for a long time. I have two, somewhat contradictory, thoughts that I thought I’d put out here, to add to the discussion:
First, Lisa and her daughter absolutely should not be subjected to the kinds of experiences Lisa has described. While I do think single sex space expectations of privacy are fair to have, including in bathrooms, in the case of children, a child who is possibly in the wrong bathroom should not a priori be assumed to be a threat, even mischievous younger boys trying to “sneak in” where they know they’re not supposed to be--though, in the latter case, aI think it would be fair enough for a Momlike intervention to send them on their way. If a child is accompanied by his/her mother, then the presumption should be that neither the parent nor the child is doing anything wrong. This doesn’t answer the question at all, of course, about how to best address wrong assumptions in the case of gender-nonconforming children. They will happen, and they will need to be dealt with somehow, but overall, the person with the concern should find a way to voice it, if they really feel they must, in the gentlest, least offensive way, with utmost regard for the child’s feelings, and with the awareness that they might well be wrong.
Now, turning to adults--and I would also add teenagers--the issues are different. I don’t think any man should be able to self-ID his way into a single sex space intended for women (and by this I mean biological women). That is simply a matter of respecting women’s privacy, and also recognizing that women have a multitude of valid causes for concern about any man would want to do that, including what this does to a woman’s sense of safety. Men should respect that boundary, period. In the case of public bathrooms, I don’t see any valid reason for breaching it, particularly as single stall unisex bathrooms are an easy fix to avoid this problem. This doesn’t mean the boundary can be so easily policed, but rather that we can avoid a whole lot of trouble if men are taught, unequivocally, that they must respect women’s privacy boundaries, that self ID cannot excuse any breach, and that a woman’s objection must not only be allowed, but honored, if a breach occurs and is recognized. Now, what about a woman who seems, to the objecting person, to be a man? Here, the best I can say is, the objector should try the best she can to be certain of the person’s sex, and if not certain, tread softly, unless she truly, truly believes she is under threat. A quick exchange in such a case might resolve the matter simply. Also, speaking as someone with direct experience of being mistaken for the opposite sex, it is just a given that it’s necessary to be alert that this might happen and have ready what to say. It’s not perfect, but I think the balance has to be in this direction. It’s self ID, I think, that is throwing all of this totally out of whack.
Thank you Lisa for another thoughtful, nuanced piece about a very tricky issue which has generated such polarisation and hatred.
"For those of you who want girls to use the girls’ room and boys to use the boys’ room, how do you propose we minimize the anger, and, yes, sometimes even violence—actual violence—directed at gender nonconforming people? "
The reason your daughter was accosted is precisely because we now allow men (and "trans" "women" are men) in what were formerly women's spaces. Stop allowing that, go back to the old rule of strict separation, and appearane will matter much less.
"If boys aren’t allowed to transition before puberty strikes, their penchants for women’s clothing, or to have a female-like body, will still be there, and they’ll never “pass.” "
How do you know that their gender dysphoria "will still be there"? Pre-puberty gender dysphoria, as you must know, more often desists than persists.
And there is NO DIAGNOSTIC to separate the persisters from the desisters. No one knows how to tell one from the other.
GIVEN THAT FACT, it is immoral and unethical to perform ANY SORT of medical transition on any child.
Why you want to mutilate and sterilize children whose future feelings YOU DO NOT KNOW is an absolute mystery to me.
If you’re actually asking for a response…I don’t think all AGPs have gender dysphoria but I do think their desires are less likely to desist, considering that until recently most transsexuals were middle aged men. I’m talking about that population in that particular sentence
Which sentence? You wrote "If boys aren’t allowed to transition before puberty strikes", how does that refer to middle-aged men?
AFAIK, you still support sterilizing drugs and mutilating surgery for children with gender dysphoria, provided that their parents have been sufficiently gaslit by Big Trans to go along with it. Is that not correct?
If it is correct, you are in the moral and ethical wrong. Sterilizing and mutilating children is a crime against humanity, period.
I meant boys who grow up to be AGPs. Will fix.
I don't think you know what you're talking about, i.e. you have Lisa wrong.
Yes, he has me wrong.
Are you for or against laws that forbid drugs and/or surgery for gender dysphoric children?
IMO, such laws simply prevent quack treatment, much as laws that require proof that a drug is both safe and effective before it can be legally marketed.
I honestly think it was the start of a very slippery slope when the first surgeon performed a "sex change operation" on an adult male. Even AGP is a psychological problem and shouldn't have been viewed as "fixable" with surgeries. People know it's wrong to let body dysmorphia sufferers have their limbs cut off, so why is it ever okay to cut off a person's sex organs? But SRS has been allowed for years because adults have been allowed to choose it and you can't say no to an adult. Now the same illogical and drastic surgeries have come after the children and no one can figure how to stop them.
Are you saying that AGP starts in boyhood? I’m surprised if so, because I thought AGP was fetish-based, which I would assume is something that only develops after puberty. (I’m genuinely asking.)
As I understand it, that does happen in some cases. Not in all.
When I was a masculine presenting teen girl and woman ( 1980-2004), I regularly encountered harsh, threatening, and on occasion violent reactions from other girls and women in public restrooms. This was way before the more recent issue you're asserting. Strong reactions to gender nonconforming females is not a new phenomenon.
"Making room for gender diversity also means accepting autogynephilic trans women and cross-dressers."
AGP ppl are already fully accepted. but they shouldnt use the womens room. one reason is that males who presenting as women is a choice. its a choice they get a thrill from. agp is more like drinking alcohol or using drugs. its a high. it has nothing in common with immutable characteristics like race, sex, sexuality. persons who lie claiming that acting out agp in public isnt a choice are really part of a mens rights movement that erases the rights of a half a doz groups.
gender ideology actually reduces diversity, not increases it. tom boys are told they may actually be boys. feminine boys are told they may actually be girls. this has the affect of forcing kids and people into stereotypical gender norms. it has the opposite effect of gender diversity. also, gender biz polcies that have been enacted worldwide lie to kids tell them that identification as opposite gender will solve every normal kid issue. in reality it harms them more than it helps. the governments of UK, sweden finland did reviews and found gender meds dont help anything - they dont help dysphoria, mental health, social functioning , nothing nada ziltch. what these policies do do is create life long medical patients from kids who otherwise grow out of their issues. but once theyre on the meds they have tons of new problems. this is the result of supporting the mens rights movement and big biz fraud called gender ideology
this story is complete fiction. just another made up scenario to support the mens rights movement called gender ideology. 99% of people who attack women are men. thats why women need private spaces that dont include bio men. theres no evidence that men who id as women are less violent or commit less crimes than other men.
theres no reason why men who id as women cant use the mens room. they are safer there. theres never been an incident in the mens room with men in drag. the reason is other men couldnt care less if their in there. men in drag would be one of the least unusual people in the mens room. stop the gaslighting