Beyond trying to bring the two sides together, what I am finding, even now that the Democrats have been handed their heads on a platter, is that most people in my social circle and neighborhood remain in the dark/unable to digest that the Democrats are wrong about these issues—even those with whom I have had conversations about this over time. The news ecosystems people choose to live within of course perpetuate this, as does the continued refusal of almost all Democratic electeds to change course, substantively, and to do it out loud. So, for me, the question remains, even now, how to break through without having people run for the exits because it so disrupts their view of what is liberal and what is conservative. On this, I remain at a loss.
my comment to progressives would be that dems cant win elections with policies based on gender beliefs hanging around thier neck. 75% of everyone oppose men invading womens spaces and sterilizing kids. all trump had to do to move the needle a few points in his direction in swing states was to run ads with a couple of her stances. she couldnt reply becuase theres 1000 other gender biz quack policies dems still support.
in my imagination some dems have gotton the message. observe the military defence bill passed with no US military support for gender care of children of service members (i think). and biden withdrew part of his title ix policy change.
dems have no where to go on this. there is no middle ground. the adults in the room get this.
There are corollaries, which sometimes work in discussions. Like, this is our (the Left's) version of MAGA election denial. Or this is our version of Creationism. What makes liberals think they're immune to disinformation? (Hank Green has a great podcast episode "I Believed These Four Lies" https://youtu.be/W92bjv8fNTI?si=H6gddzwb3Xxl3yKm)
The most irritating question I have for people who are true believers is, "If I could get a shot, or take a pill, that would give me darker skin, and I claimed the identity "African American" or "Native American," would it be true?"
im hoping scotus makes a comment on the mutable nature of gender ID. this would be relevant to the Tenn case becuase in that case Biden's team requested gender ID (a hobby most desist from eventually) be designated a suspect class, like protected classes of ppl with immutable characteristics, like age, ethnic background or sex. im hoping the court learned their lesson from when Gorsuch tried to be nice in the bostock case and gender activists used an employment discrimination case to set womens rights back 400 years by letting men everywhere invade womens spaces.
I think we are entering a period of realignment. Since we are a two party system (and a 2-side culture) the realignment will be silly, in a sort of 1984 kind of way where enemies become friends and allies, foes. So how the parties define themselves will shift. It would be great if additional parties could grow out of this but not holding my breath.
There is no such thing as "gender affirming care" for minors or adults.
No mental problem can be treated by mutilating and sterilizing people of any age.
There was no tiny percentage of people who really needed ice picks stuck in their brains for a lobotomy, there is no tiny percentage of white people who are actually black (like Rachel Dolezal), and there is no tiny percentage of starving anorexics who should be given Adderrall to help them lose even more weight.
That is because nobody is born in the wrong body.
Wanting to be another person is a symptom of a deeper mental problem, not a condition that should be "affirmed."
Therefore, "trans" does not exist and none of this is real.
No other approach will work. Tiptoeing around that truth will not help children, women, or society.
wow temporarily suspended. funny how the entire democrat party can say its OK to sterilize and permanently harm dysphoric kids but if ppl simply repeat items from offical gov reports on this issue theyre banned. in 2021, 43000 US kids reported gender dysphoria. a few years prior to that it was almost none. could it have anything to do with progressive DEI school instruction that tells kids puberty is optional and sterilizing gender meds help every normal kid issue (and btw dont tell your parents i told you that)?
I don't know enough of the history, so I am wondering . . . were there actual patients who asked for a lobotomy for themselves, or was the procedure always requested *on behalf of* the individual upon whom it would be performed? I think that may be an important difference between that medical scandal and pediatric (and adult) "gender medicine" . . .
This is something I have also wondered. But I'm not sure the difference is all that significant. What we have now is a widely accepted narrative about people having gendered souls in the wrong body, which is compelling people to ask for these treatments. To me that seems like the real source of the scandal.
This belief system is not something any of these kids asked for; they were indoctrinated to think they had a specific problem that has only one solution. Who wouldn't then request the solution? This may have also been true for any elective lobotomies, if there were such a thing.
You might want to look at the methods of propaganda developed by Edward Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, who figured out how to get people to buy things they didn't need by tapping into the effects of identity formation.
its may seem like that would be a separating factor. but its not when ppl who undergo gender affirming interventions are basically tricked into to. theyre told this "care" helps normal psych issues. it doesnt. every gov systematic review on earth found gender meds dont help kids dysphoria, mental health, social function or anything else. we now know claims this care helps are based on meaningless online polls created by activists and the zero evidenced opinion of quacks who are getting rich harming vulnerable ppl. UK medical group BMJ report "gender dysphoria in youth is rising" explains how theres actually zero evidence gender care helps. its a scam. and this bogus claim is only one of 1000 bogus claims made to kids and parents misrepresenting this "care". once you start looking ul find every gender biz stat and claim is 100% bogus. the claims of suicide of gender dysphoric kids is a lie. turns out they dont commit suicide more than others with same psych issues. the claim that few grow out of it is a lie. every study ever done found kids deist from their wish to ID as another gender with puberty if they dont take gender meds. we now know that even most adults whov been on gender meds stop taking them eventually. german insurance records found that 50% stop taking gender meda by year 4. US military says a similar # do. its all a huge misinformation campaign via mens rights activists to trick vulnerable ppl into this quackery. so it cant be compared to anything like past medical procedures someone may have consented to. consent based on fraud and deception isnt consent. its fraud
You might want to look at the methods of propaganda developed by Edward Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, who figured out how to get people to buy things they didn't need by tapping into the effects of identity formation.
thanks for all your work. during most situations the peace makers can help and assist. but this isnt one of of those times.
when the situation involved is a predator attacking prey, theres no room to discuss. either men are allowed in womens spaces or they arent. there is no middle ground. either kids are affirmed into harmful quackery or they arent. there is no middle ground. when even the most basic facts of an issue are bypassed and ignored, there can be no progress or understanding or common ground.
even the list of items its claimed are agreed upon are items with opposite meanings to each side.
gender activists have spent 20 years promoting a fraud via a carefully crafted PR and lobby campaign. this campaign operated on the down low, without most knowing about it, without anyone voting on these policies, without public opportunity to review or object. now science and regulators and the public are waking up to this harmful fraud. its best to allow the process play out
Happy Chronika and thanks for the rare voice of nuance. Looking forward to your book. And just being heard is enormous for anyone anywhere, especially without being required to justify or explain. Being willing to listen is even harder, and fully accept the reality of other people's beliefs. That first gigantic step of acceptance (not of the content of the belief but the genuineness of the belief) gets us back to human. And humans can talk.
Wow! Fantastic write-up, Lisa! Thanks for this excellent reporting on that BA event! As I read through the points of common agreement, I wondered, if #9 had read "We should accept BOTH children who do, and do not, conform to gender stereotypes" would it have still made the list? I think a major cause of much of today's inhumanity towards many categories of people who are impacted by this issue, besides the "trans kids" out of which much of media as made the ultimate "poster child" prop for moral heroics, is the tendency of many of us today to idealize and over-focus on "victim" groups, while leaving no room in our thoughts for everyone else. And worse, (as you well know) some of us will actually go all "Momma Bear," and actually villainize anyone who points that out. I hope you can find time to continue to attend, participate in, and report on these events. I really think that we all (including me) need more opportunities to develop resilience in the face of hearing people say things that offend us, so we can toughen up enough to pitch in on processes that maintain our pluralist representative democracy, and not slide into a brain-dead "niceness," that compromises the integrity of forums within which ALL perspectives can be aired and examined. After all, it is only through transparent and no-holds-barred debate that we can keep our democracy legitimate in the eyes of all and help huge populations of strangers to muddle through settling this and the countless other conflicts over practical and moral conundrums that have led to the decline (and end) of so many other civilizations throughout history. Also, I really really hope those articulating the "pro-child medicalization" position got to really hear THEMSELVES too. Did you notice examples of at least some of those individuals supporting "gender affirming care" starting to abandon the familiar thought-stopping slogans from the trans activist playbook, as they attempted to fully express their beliefs in a less emotionally fraught setting?
I was just thinking about one of the values that did NOT get unanimous agreement: #2. Parents should not be excluded from the care of their children (decision-making and general awareness) by government agencies. It brought to mind a line from one of my favourite movies, "Parenthood," a scene in which Keanu Reeves plays a teen speaking frankly about his experience being "fathered" badly. One line is about the best steelman of the chilling implications of the fact that many of the participants in this Braver Angels workshop think it's a good idea to increase the power of the bureaucratic state to separate children from their parents. Says Reeves character: "You know, Ms. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog or drive a car -- hell! You need a license to catch a fish! But they'll let any butt-reamin' asshole be a father!" [see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSC0XOc5v5M ] However, I think the assumption made on the part of those who think there should be more top-down mechanisms to micromanage what ALL adults may impart to their children, is due to this general tendency of journalism and popular culture to exaggerate the prevalence of "man-bites-dog" stories featuring parents who exhibit sociopathic behavior. For a couple generations now, young parents have been fooled into thinking they need to walk on eggshells to avoid doing mental damage to their children by news and entertainment corporations and activist organizations who've figured out that scaring the shit out of parents by means of lurid (and statistically rare) stories about kidnapped or horribly abused kids, well-seasoned with tons of pseudoscience about mental health streaming out of academia, draws viewers (and rich donors, and actors desperate to be seen as "serious" people) like flies. [See the work of Lenore Skenazy at https://www.freerangekids.com/ ] . . . and now our popular culture has arrived at this state, where a huge number of well-meaning people think an impersonal state bureaucracy can care for children better than their actual parents (99.9% of whom who LOVE the child, however imperfectly) . . . and despite all the high-profile examples of some pretty impressive individuals who survived parenting (and who arguably owed their stunning resilience to an extremely painful childhood) by the most gravely imperfect of parents [see examples "Educated: A Memoir" by Tara Westover, Hillbilly Elegy, by J.D. Vance] . . . and the many examples of how power, together with certain government officials' stunning ability to apparently rationalize their their way into harming large numbers of other people's children [see story of Pennsylvania judge convicted in a "kids-for-cash scandal" recently granted clemency by Joe Biden. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/14/kids-for-cash-judge-biden-pardon] makes one wonder how cavalierly people assume that we'll get better results from a "benevolent dictatorship" of "public servants" routinely undermining parents.
You write: Some of you who’ve become die-hard sex-based realists may object to “It is legitimate to be a trans person.” Transsexuals exist, regardless of what drove them to transition.''
As almost always in this context, there is ambiguity in words. What does it mean to be "legitimate"? The same issue is raised when you encounter someone with an extreme religious view, perhaps someone who becomes a hermit. Hermits exist, even if one thinks the choice of this life course is a mistake. Someone who nevertheless takes this route: are they "legimate"?
The Trans movement is one which believes that a girl’s body may be the wrong one because she is a lesbian, and this lesbianism can be ‘fixed’ through the application of a double mastectomy. It’s as idiotic as affirming the notion that 2+2 can equal 5 as long as thinking so represents the person’s so-called authentic self. It’s all mind-grinding lunacy.
"To me, what mattered wasn’t crafting a perfect document, but making sure that “true believers” heard me—and making sure I heard them."
Although admirable for having the conversation, I'd love to understand the demographics of the people who were against a moratorium, but having done this for a while, I'm sure we can all guess by now. The points of disagreement tells us all we need to know about their suspected belief system. I personally wouldn't waste my time trying to negotiate with them, because these are the very people willing to fight to the death for what they have done.
It looks to me that "gender affirming care" is nothing more than a euphemistic advertising brand for what is in reality *elective sterilization*. I say this based only on primary principles, my abilities in pattern recognition, and my general knowledge of social engineering. I see this medical travesty as the marriage between Margaret Sanger's brand of *eugenics* and Edward Bernays's methods of *public relations*.
I notice from your article no mention of the effects of identified *brand loyalty*.
Thanks so much, Lisa! Wow, just reading the comments here highlights in a dramatic way, why this topic is so fraught. Lots of black and white thinking going on. I understand both sides and agree with you that we must reach some point of understanding but I truly think there’s no going back to what we believed 20 years ago about this issue. That’s the past and we have to move forward.
I’d like to think that the gentler way to address this, WITH THE KIDS, as we as adults will always struggle to understand their view point as we’re not living it, is to make concessions that are NOT physically harmful and permanent but still lets the kids explore their identities in a way that’s meaningful to them. I’m not talking drugs or surgery, I’m talking dress, pronouns (which I abhor, btw), friends, makeup, jewelry- affirmations that are not permanent but allow kids to explore how they actually feel about it, without the resistance that teens automatically love to fight against. In other words, accept the small steps that might lead to disillusion and a realignment back to their sexed identity. Tolerance but not acceptance, love, not hate. Just a thought.
we know what kids are thinking . they tell us everyday. and we know how dumb kids are. how theyre easily tricked into just about anything if adults werent around to clue them in. we know even a 10 year old would be dead in a week if parents weren't telling them to watch for cars when crossing the street . we know that kids dont understand how much adults lie. that adults are lying when they tell kids social transition is a harmless endeavor or that theres medical evidence it helps people. it doesnt. there isnt. we know the ppl who claim its good if kids explore their gender ID really want to limit it via harmful meds that stop kids from exploring gender and instead force them to conform to rigid gender stereo types and causes lifelong health catastrophies kids couldnt possibly understand. and we know many adults too have been scammed into gender beliefs by 1000 lies created and maintained by mens rights activists who are robbing the rights of and harming a half a doz vulnerable groups (women. kids. gays. gnc. ppl with psych issues and others) to benefit white males and the $10 trillion health biz
I agree kids are easily influenced, which, I think, started the social contagion of thinking they’re in the wrong body. I agree it’s mental illness and that the adults are responsible, in many ways, for influencing this twisted thinking. But kids also automatically resist their parents or authority figures, as part of their natural development. It’s a difficult, twisted conundrum of how to solve this mess. We can’t go back- the cat is already out of the bag and it’s going to take a long time to get it right. I’m so sympathetic to the parents wrestling with this. I wish I had answers but I don’t.
we can go back. we can go back to telling kids to accept their bodies. we can go back to warning kids against quackery and groomers. we can start to recognize that gender beliefs are anti science and harmful in a similar way as cigarette smoking or heroin is.
I agree with all you wrote except for the reference to white males. I don't think it helps us in this fight to continue using the erroneous memes promoted by those who benefit from dividing us. Tens of millions of white males just voted for the guy who said he'll stop the gender ideology insanity. Like the white men in Britain and the US who stepped up to stop slavery, they are the heroes in this gender identity fight. In fact, given that transitioners are mostly white, I'll hazard to say it hurts a lot more white men than the few who profit from the transitioning industry. Even white males who vote for Democrats are harmed by Dem policies. How does a white father in CA benefit from his child being secretly transitioned by the local school? Or maybe you believe that since many rich people are white males, that means there aren't hundreds of millions of white people who are NOT rich, who do not benefit from stock market investments with the transitioning profiteers. Or maybe you erroneously believe all or most doctors are white, that there aren't people of color who got MDs in India, Pakistan and other countries. I hope you rethink your use of the evil “white males” meme that is habitually promoted even though many of us see how egregious those statements are.
Kids need our help. Democrats will likely back off the gendertrain a bit but dig in their heels enough to use this issue to retake the House in two years and the presidency in four. I don't think it helps to continue insulting groups of people based on their race or sex. Perhaps a more accurate statement would be: There are many white, heterosexual, entitled, narcissistic AGP males who harass lesbians and other women for not accepting that they have magically changed their sex. For the kids' sake, let's keep fighting them. We have a lot of work to do over the next two years if we want to fire more corrupt Democrats.
thanks for your comments. i understand the issue of ppl seeking to address issues of marginalization by comparing misc groups to "whites" . i understand this can be divisive. in those cases ppl are using the generic group of "whites" to contrast themselves and emphasize other groups are not "white". the implication is, by no fault of their own, they dont benefit in the same way as whites, or have been disadvantaged in a way that whites wouldnt have.
yes, i know thats going on. but since im white and live in los angeles, the most diverse city in the world, perhaps thats not top of mind for me.
i am using the term white to emphasize that dysphoric and or gender non conforming ppl arent marginalized via their non conformity, at least not to the extent that the rights of half a doz other groups should be removed, or not to the extent that half a doz other groups should be harmed as part of a misguided attempt to address a sci fi fantasy about ppl who really arent that different than anybody.
As J.K. Rowling posted on X in response to a critic, “There are no trans kids. No child is 'born in the wrong body'. There are only adults like you, prepared to sacrifice the health of minors to bolster your belief in an ideology that will end up wreaking more harm than lobotomies and false memory syndrome combined.”
IOW, kids arent magical ppl and shouldnt be robbed of their right to puberty and life long health due to adults mistaken belief they are some kind of magic person.
similarly, adults who ID as trans are also just regular ppl. if theyre a natal male, they are as privledged as the standard white male is, and these males shouldnt be allowed to rob the rights of women by entering their spaces based on a self proclaimed marginalization. men who ID as trans are perfectly safe in the mens restroom. no one cares if theyre in there, no one would look twice. police records show they are one of the safest groups even while activists at UCLA's williams groups engages in propaganda via activists self reports via anyonomous online polls.
in my everyday life I work with people who are black, from india, el salvador, mexico, korea, taiwan, vietnam and many other places. many of these people are smarter than me, better writers than me, better managers than me, make twice as much $ as me.
IMO, issues of race as you refer arent as big an issue in my community. But i know they exists and that whites in fly over states are triggered any time the term is used. to be honest i dont care . but thanks. we each do our part the best we can. there have been many sematic disagreements among GC ppl. i recall reading many differing views about what trans ID ppl should be called. and then theres the whole sis not sis issue. white men can handle it if the term white men is used. im about the whitest person i know, and thankfully not one part english.
Thank you for this endeavour rather you than I to try and disentangle the mess … you are correct many ( most ?) like me find “trans” is not a coherent category …and neither is it a marginalised group when it comes to political heft ….also not sure ordinary people “ become” sex realists … folk can do their thing as adults if they redirect the rights of women … but target children and they’ll have to get past this Scottish granny …
Beyond trying to bring the two sides together, what I am finding, even now that the Democrats have been handed their heads on a platter, is that most people in my social circle and neighborhood remain in the dark/unable to digest that the Democrats are wrong about these issues—even those with whom I have had conversations about this over time. The news ecosystems people choose to live within of course perpetuate this, as does the continued refusal of almost all Democratic electeds to change course, substantively, and to do it out loud. So, for me, the question remains, even now, how to break through without having people run for the exits because it so disrupts their view of what is liberal and what is conservative. On this, I remain at a loss.
my comment to progressives would be that dems cant win elections with policies based on gender beliefs hanging around thier neck. 75% of everyone oppose men invading womens spaces and sterilizing kids. all trump had to do to move the needle a few points in his direction in swing states was to run ads with a couple of her stances. she couldnt reply becuase theres 1000 other gender biz quack policies dems still support.
in my imagination some dems have gotton the message. observe the military defence bill passed with no US military support for gender care of children of service members (i think). and biden withdrew part of his title ix policy change.
dems have no where to go on this. there is no middle ground. the adults in the room get this.
Just saw this. I agree with your read 💯
There are corollaries, which sometimes work in discussions. Like, this is our (the Left's) version of MAGA election denial. Or this is our version of Creationism. What makes liberals think they're immune to disinformation? (Hank Green has a great podcast episode "I Believed These Four Lies" https://youtu.be/W92bjv8fNTI?si=H6gddzwb3Xxl3yKm)
The most irritating question I have for people who are true believers is, "If I could get a shot, or take a pill, that would give me darker skin, and I claimed the identity "African American" or "Native American," would it be true?"
im hoping scotus makes a comment on the mutable nature of gender ID. this would be relevant to the Tenn case becuase in that case Biden's team requested gender ID (a hobby most desist from eventually) be designated a suspect class, like protected classes of ppl with immutable characteristics, like age, ethnic background or sex. im hoping the court learned their lesson from when Gorsuch tried to be nice in the bostock case and gender activists used an employment discrimination case to set womens rights back 400 years by letting men everywhere invade womens spaces.
I think we are entering a period of realignment. Since we are a two party system (and a 2-side culture) the realignment will be silly, in a sort of 1984 kind of way where enemies become friends and allies, foes. So how the parties define themselves will shift. It would be great if additional parties could grow out of this but not holding my breath.
There is no such thing as "gender affirming care" for minors or adults.
No mental problem can be treated by mutilating and sterilizing people of any age.
There was no tiny percentage of people who really needed ice picks stuck in their brains for a lobotomy, there is no tiny percentage of white people who are actually black (like Rachel Dolezal), and there is no tiny percentage of starving anorexics who should be given Adderrall to help them lose even more weight.
That is because nobody is born in the wrong body.
Wanting to be another person is a symptom of a deeper mental problem, not a condition that should be "affirmed."
Therefore, "trans" does not exist and none of this is real.
No other approach will work. Tiptoeing around that truth will not help children, women, or society.
Thank you for sharing your perspective on the Braver Angels Finding Common Ground Workshop. I'm glad you were able to attend and write about it.
I'm so glad Braver Angels hosted a Common Ground Workshop on this topic and you were involved!
wow temporarily suspended. funny how the entire democrat party can say its OK to sterilize and permanently harm dysphoric kids but if ppl simply repeat items from offical gov reports on this issue theyre banned. in 2021, 43000 US kids reported gender dysphoria. a few years prior to that it was almost none. could it have anything to do with progressive DEI school instruction that tells kids puberty is optional and sterilizing gender meds help every normal kid issue (and btw dont tell your parents i told you that)?
I don't know enough of the history, so I am wondering . . . were there actual patients who asked for a lobotomy for themselves, or was the procedure always requested *on behalf of* the individual upon whom it would be performed? I think that may be an important difference between that medical scandal and pediatric (and adult) "gender medicine" . . .
This is something I have also wondered. But I'm not sure the difference is all that significant. What we have now is a widely accepted narrative about people having gendered souls in the wrong body, which is compelling people to ask for these treatments. To me that seems like the real source of the scandal.
This belief system is not something any of these kids asked for; they were indoctrinated to think they had a specific problem that has only one solution. Who wouldn't then request the solution? This may have also been true for any elective lobotomies, if there were such a thing.
You might want to look at the methods of propaganda developed by Edward Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, who figured out how to get people to buy things they didn't need by tapping into the effects of identity formation.
its may seem like that would be a separating factor. but its not when ppl who undergo gender affirming interventions are basically tricked into to. theyre told this "care" helps normal psych issues. it doesnt. every gov systematic review on earth found gender meds dont help kids dysphoria, mental health, social function or anything else. we now know claims this care helps are based on meaningless online polls created by activists and the zero evidenced opinion of quacks who are getting rich harming vulnerable ppl. UK medical group BMJ report "gender dysphoria in youth is rising" explains how theres actually zero evidence gender care helps. its a scam. and this bogus claim is only one of 1000 bogus claims made to kids and parents misrepresenting this "care". once you start looking ul find every gender biz stat and claim is 100% bogus. the claims of suicide of gender dysphoric kids is a lie. turns out they dont commit suicide more than others with same psych issues. the claim that few grow out of it is a lie. every study ever done found kids deist from their wish to ID as another gender with puberty if they dont take gender meds. we now know that even most adults whov been on gender meds stop taking them eventually. german insurance records found that 50% stop taking gender meda by year 4. US military says a similar # do. its all a huge misinformation campaign via mens rights activists to trick vulnerable ppl into this quackery. so it cant be compared to anything like past medical procedures someone may have consented to. consent based on fraud and deception isnt consent. its fraud
You might want to look at the methods of propaganda developed by Edward Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, who figured out how to get people to buy things they didn't need by tapping into the effects of identity formation.
thanks for all your work. during most situations the peace makers can help and assist. but this isnt one of of those times.
when the situation involved is a predator attacking prey, theres no room to discuss. either men are allowed in womens spaces or they arent. there is no middle ground. either kids are affirmed into harmful quackery or they arent. there is no middle ground. when even the most basic facts of an issue are bypassed and ignored, there can be no progress or understanding or common ground.
even the list of items its claimed are agreed upon are items with opposite meanings to each side.
gender activists have spent 20 years promoting a fraud via a carefully crafted PR and lobby campaign. this campaign operated on the down low, without most knowing about it, without anyone voting on these policies, without public opportunity to review or object. now science and regulators and the public are waking up to this harmful fraud. its best to allow the process play out
Thank you for all you have done and all you are doing!!!
Including this essay- you have done so much to help people communicate. It was surprising what people disagreed about!
Happy Chronika and thanks for the rare voice of nuance. Looking forward to your book. And just being heard is enormous for anyone anywhere, especially without being required to justify or explain. Being willing to listen is even harder, and fully accept the reality of other people's beliefs. That first gigantic step of acceptance (not of the content of the belief but the genuineness of the belief) gets us back to human. And humans can talk.
I’m asking sincerely because I’ve never heard this before…what is Chronica?
Wow! Fantastic write-up, Lisa! Thanks for this excellent reporting on that BA event! As I read through the points of common agreement, I wondered, if #9 had read "We should accept BOTH children who do, and do not, conform to gender stereotypes" would it have still made the list? I think a major cause of much of today's inhumanity towards many categories of people who are impacted by this issue, besides the "trans kids" out of which much of media as made the ultimate "poster child" prop for moral heroics, is the tendency of many of us today to idealize and over-focus on "victim" groups, while leaving no room in our thoughts for everyone else. And worse, (as you well know) some of us will actually go all "Momma Bear," and actually villainize anyone who points that out. I hope you can find time to continue to attend, participate in, and report on these events. I really think that we all (including me) need more opportunities to develop resilience in the face of hearing people say things that offend us, so we can toughen up enough to pitch in on processes that maintain our pluralist representative democracy, and not slide into a brain-dead "niceness," that compromises the integrity of forums within which ALL perspectives can be aired and examined. After all, it is only through transparent and no-holds-barred debate that we can keep our democracy legitimate in the eyes of all and help huge populations of strangers to muddle through settling this and the countless other conflicts over practical and moral conundrums that have led to the decline (and end) of so many other civilizations throughout history. Also, I really really hope those articulating the "pro-child medicalization" position got to really hear THEMSELVES too. Did you notice examples of at least some of those individuals supporting "gender affirming care" starting to abandon the familiar thought-stopping slogans from the trans activist playbook, as they attempted to fully express their beliefs in a less emotionally fraught setting?
I was just thinking about one of the values that did NOT get unanimous agreement: #2. Parents should not be excluded from the care of their children (decision-making and general awareness) by government agencies. It brought to mind a line from one of my favourite movies, "Parenthood," a scene in which Keanu Reeves plays a teen speaking frankly about his experience being "fathered" badly. One line is about the best steelman of the chilling implications of the fact that many of the participants in this Braver Angels workshop think it's a good idea to increase the power of the bureaucratic state to separate children from their parents. Says Reeves character: "You know, Ms. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog or drive a car -- hell! You need a license to catch a fish! But they'll let any butt-reamin' asshole be a father!" [see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSC0XOc5v5M ] However, I think the assumption made on the part of those who think there should be more top-down mechanisms to micromanage what ALL adults may impart to their children, is due to this general tendency of journalism and popular culture to exaggerate the prevalence of "man-bites-dog" stories featuring parents who exhibit sociopathic behavior. For a couple generations now, young parents have been fooled into thinking they need to walk on eggshells to avoid doing mental damage to their children by news and entertainment corporations and activist organizations who've figured out that scaring the shit out of parents by means of lurid (and statistically rare) stories about kidnapped or horribly abused kids, well-seasoned with tons of pseudoscience about mental health streaming out of academia, draws viewers (and rich donors, and actors desperate to be seen as "serious" people) like flies. [See the work of Lenore Skenazy at https://www.freerangekids.com/ ] . . . and now our popular culture has arrived at this state, where a huge number of well-meaning people think an impersonal state bureaucracy can care for children better than their actual parents (99.9% of whom who LOVE the child, however imperfectly) . . . and despite all the high-profile examples of some pretty impressive individuals who survived parenting (and who arguably owed their stunning resilience to an extremely painful childhood) by the most gravely imperfect of parents [see examples "Educated: A Memoir" by Tara Westover, Hillbilly Elegy, by J.D. Vance] . . . and the many examples of how power, together with certain government officials' stunning ability to apparently rationalize their their way into harming large numbers of other people's children [see story of Pennsylvania judge convicted in a "kids-for-cash scandal" recently granted clemency by Joe Biden. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/14/kids-for-cash-judge-biden-pardon] makes one wonder how cavalierly people assume that we'll get better results from a "benevolent dictatorship" of "public servants" routinely undermining parents.
You write: Some of you who’ve become die-hard sex-based realists may object to “It is legitimate to be a trans person.” Transsexuals exist, regardless of what drove them to transition.''
As almost always in this context, there is ambiguity in words. What does it mean to be "legitimate"? The same issue is raised when you encounter someone with an extreme religious view, perhaps someone who becomes a hermit. Hermits exist, even if one thinks the choice of this life course is a mistake. Someone who nevertheless takes this route: are they "legimate"?
The Trans movement is one which believes that a girl’s body may be the wrong one because she is a lesbian, and this lesbianism can be ‘fixed’ through the application of a double mastectomy. It’s as idiotic as affirming the notion that 2+2 can equal 5 as long as thinking so represents the person’s so-called authentic self. It’s all mind-grinding lunacy.
Yes, so much of this phenomena is rooted in homophobia not to mention more members that join the cause keeps the complex humming along.
"To me, what mattered wasn’t crafting a perfect document, but making sure that “true believers” heard me—and making sure I heard them."
Although admirable for having the conversation, I'd love to understand the demographics of the people who were against a moratorium, but having done this for a while, I'm sure we can all guess by now. The points of disagreement tells us all we need to know about their suspected belief system. I personally wouldn't waste my time trying to negotiate with them, because these are the very people willing to fight to the death for what they have done.
https://youtu.be/ZG9_lcln7FU?si=XZ98-TTOwi-B4ZBF&t=4044
It looks to me that "gender affirming care" is nothing more than a euphemistic advertising brand for what is in reality *elective sterilization*. I say this based only on primary principles, my abilities in pattern recognition, and my general knowledge of social engineering. I see this medical travesty as the marriage between Margaret Sanger's brand of *eugenics* and Edward Bernays's methods of *public relations*.
I notice from your article no mention of the effects of identified *brand loyalty*.
Thanks so much, Lisa! Wow, just reading the comments here highlights in a dramatic way, why this topic is so fraught. Lots of black and white thinking going on. I understand both sides and agree with you that we must reach some point of understanding but I truly think there’s no going back to what we believed 20 years ago about this issue. That’s the past and we have to move forward.
I’d like to think that the gentler way to address this, WITH THE KIDS, as we as adults will always struggle to understand their view point as we’re not living it, is to make concessions that are NOT physically harmful and permanent but still lets the kids explore their identities in a way that’s meaningful to them. I’m not talking drugs or surgery, I’m talking dress, pronouns (which I abhor, btw), friends, makeup, jewelry- affirmations that are not permanent but allow kids to explore how they actually feel about it, without the resistance that teens automatically love to fight against. In other words, accept the small steps that might lead to disillusion and a realignment back to their sexed identity. Tolerance but not acceptance, love, not hate. Just a thought.
we know what kids are thinking . they tell us everyday. and we know how dumb kids are. how theyre easily tricked into just about anything if adults werent around to clue them in. we know even a 10 year old would be dead in a week if parents weren't telling them to watch for cars when crossing the street . we know that kids dont understand how much adults lie. that adults are lying when they tell kids social transition is a harmless endeavor or that theres medical evidence it helps people. it doesnt. there isnt. we know the ppl who claim its good if kids explore their gender ID really want to limit it via harmful meds that stop kids from exploring gender and instead force them to conform to rigid gender stereo types and causes lifelong health catastrophies kids couldnt possibly understand. and we know many adults too have been scammed into gender beliefs by 1000 lies created and maintained by mens rights activists who are robbing the rights of and harming a half a doz vulnerable groups (women. kids. gays. gnc. ppl with psych issues and others) to benefit white males and the $10 trillion health biz
I agree kids are easily influenced, which, I think, started the social contagion of thinking they’re in the wrong body. I agree it’s mental illness and that the adults are responsible, in many ways, for influencing this twisted thinking. But kids also automatically resist their parents or authority figures, as part of their natural development. It’s a difficult, twisted conundrum of how to solve this mess. We can’t go back- the cat is already out of the bag and it’s going to take a long time to get it right. I’m so sympathetic to the parents wrestling with this. I wish I had answers but I don’t.
we can go back. we can go back to telling kids to accept their bodies. we can go back to warning kids against quackery and groomers. we can start to recognize that gender beliefs are anti science and harmful in a similar way as cigarette smoking or heroin is.
“to benefit white males”
I agree with all you wrote except for the reference to white males. I don't think it helps us in this fight to continue using the erroneous memes promoted by those who benefit from dividing us. Tens of millions of white males just voted for the guy who said he'll stop the gender ideology insanity. Like the white men in Britain and the US who stepped up to stop slavery, they are the heroes in this gender identity fight. In fact, given that transitioners are mostly white, I'll hazard to say it hurts a lot more white men than the few who profit from the transitioning industry. Even white males who vote for Democrats are harmed by Dem policies. How does a white father in CA benefit from his child being secretly transitioned by the local school? Or maybe you believe that since many rich people are white males, that means there aren't hundreds of millions of white people who are NOT rich, who do not benefit from stock market investments with the transitioning profiteers. Or maybe you erroneously believe all or most doctors are white, that there aren't people of color who got MDs in India, Pakistan and other countries. I hope you rethink your use of the evil “white males” meme that is habitually promoted even though many of us see how egregious those statements are.
Kids need our help. Democrats will likely back off the gendertrain a bit but dig in their heels enough to use this issue to retake the House in two years and the presidency in four. I don't think it helps to continue insulting groups of people based on their race or sex. Perhaps a more accurate statement would be: There are many white, heterosexual, entitled, narcissistic AGP males who harass lesbians and other women for not accepting that they have magically changed their sex. For the kids' sake, let's keep fighting them. We have a lot of work to do over the next two years if we want to fire more corrupt Democrats.
thanks for your comments. i understand the issue of ppl seeking to address issues of marginalization by comparing misc groups to "whites" . i understand this can be divisive. in those cases ppl are using the generic group of "whites" to contrast themselves and emphasize other groups are not "white". the implication is, by no fault of their own, they dont benefit in the same way as whites, or have been disadvantaged in a way that whites wouldnt have.
yes, i know thats going on. but since im white and live in los angeles, the most diverse city in the world, perhaps thats not top of mind for me.
i am using the term white to emphasize that dysphoric and or gender non conforming ppl arent marginalized via their non conformity, at least not to the extent that the rights of half a doz other groups should be removed, or not to the extent that half a doz other groups should be harmed as part of a misguided attempt to address a sci fi fantasy about ppl who really arent that different than anybody.
As J.K. Rowling posted on X in response to a critic, “There are no trans kids. No child is 'born in the wrong body'. There are only adults like you, prepared to sacrifice the health of minors to bolster your belief in an ideology that will end up wreaking more harm than lobotomies and false memory syndrome combined.”
IOW, kids arent magical ppl and shouldnt be robbed of their right to puberty and life long health due to adults mistaken belief they are some kind of magic person.
similarly, adults who ID as trans are also just regular ppl. if theyre a natal male, they are as privledged as the standard white male is, and these males shouldnt be allowed to rob the rights of women by entering their spaces based on a self proclaimed marginalization. men who ID as trans are perfectly safe in the mens restroom. no one cares if theyre in there, no one would look twice. police records show they are one of the safest groups even while activists at UCLA's williams groups engages in propaganda via activists self reports via anyonomous online polls.
in my everyday life I work with people who are black, from india, el salvador, mexico, korea, taiwan, vietnam and many other places. many of these people are smarter than me, better writers than me, better managers than me, make twice as much $ as me.
IMO, issues of race as you refer arent as big an issue in my community. But i know they exists and that whites in fly over states are triggered any time the term is used. to be honest i dont care . but thanks. we each do our part the best we can. there have been many sematic disagreements among GC ppl. i recall reading many differing views about what trans ID ppl should be called. and then theres the whole sis not sis issue. white men can handle it if the term white men is used. im about the whitest person i know, and thankfully not one part english.
Sorry should read respect womens rights
Thank you for this endeavour rather you than I to try and disentangle the mess … you are correct many ( most ?) like me find “trans” is not a coherent category …and neither is it a marginalised group when it comes to political heft ….also not sure ordinary people “ become” sex realists … folk can do their thing as adults if they redirect the rights of women … but target children and they’ll have to get past this Scottish granny …