This post helps highlight that the whole "harm" narrative of men who present as women and feel "harm" if they can't invade women's spaces is really about the fact that in men's spaces they would be shamed. If men in general were more (completely?) accepting of non-conforming males, this whole push into women's spaces would likely evaporate. I'm no fan of the widespread usage of "toxic masculinity", but it's undeniable that the average American male (and likely the average male) is strongly intolerant of non-conforming males in their spaces.
Saelua never claimed to be female when he was playing and played with the men. Perfect solution. It makes me wonder if some of this issue is grounded in men feeling uncomfortable with feminine men and gatekeeping masculinity or being insecure about their sexuality to a degree. I did read somewhere that Saelua was considering playing in women’s leagues after ‘transitioning’, though I’m not sure if he actually did this. I’m all for dropping the gender stereotypes, just as long as we all understand no-one can change sex. As JK Rowling said “wear what you like” (no, this doesn’t include fetish gear!) I also don’t think it’s possible or desirable to police what people wear in most situations.
I think people get so wrapped up in what they like that they forget other people have preferences, too. I personally don't fancy a man in a dress, for example, but I'm totally okay if a guy does wear one, and even supportive if he's accepting of the fact he IS a man.
I have encountered some in my travels in Tahiti and it has little to do with the western idea of trans. They are basically gay men who have adopted feminine stereotypes of dress and manner. They do not claim to be women and it offends no one.
There is something going on here that transcends the current debate about trans identities. On every trip to the grocery store, Home Depot, or my on general walks about town, I encounter a woman dressed in typical male clothing. On rare occasion I may notice. But, my reaction is more akin to noticing a cool hat or snazzy shirt. There is no shutter, no confusion, no cognitive dissonance. But a man wearing typical female garb does elicit a double-take and a dose of discomfort. Why is this? Why are men no afforded the same grace when it comes to self-expression as women?
Interestingly, the female version of fa'afafine are not particularly tolerated, per Vasey. But here it's the opposite. And I think it's because of homophobia, really—even though we now understand that AGPs are not gay. I think that's where the pressure to be masculine ultimately comes from. At least in the West.
In the US at least, the historical criminalization of crossdressing, such as the so-called three-piece law of early to mid XXth century NYC, have been ••overwhelmingly• weaponized against working-class Women in manual trades or other such jobs, The main target was public lesbianism in general, but Butch lesbians wearing literal work clothes for entirely unglamorous reasons were quite the easy target.
Laws that used a given minimum number of garments or accessories—such as three pieces—to define illegal crossdressing never had a threshold of 1 garment, meaning that these laws would NEVER apply to a man wearing a dress.
Also, see Lillian Faderman on this--in her memoir, Naked in the Promised Land, she covers personal experience with these laws--probably should check out her other book on the history of lesbians in the U.S., Odd Girls and Twilight Lovers
Samoan(-American) famílies in my local area—from Samoa proper, not American Samoa (a rarity around here)—have told me two additional fact0ids about fa'afafine:
/1/ Not only do they never compete in Women's or Girls' sports or other athletic competitions, but they in fact NEVER compete directly with Women, in any imaginable type of contest or competition.
And moreover, /2/ the fa'afafine are often enlisted to help widowed and/or elderly Women with the more physically intensive parts of Their domestic work load, as Theiy struggle increasingly to complete all those tasks betd🖤🖤🖤 Imagine if Western "tr@ns womxn" did even a little bit of this type of thing.
BTW
Do people actually SAY "Top of the mornin'" somewhere in the British Isles? lol I've alws thought this was like "Well, well, well"—a phrase that basically all of us have heard from TV/movies, but that basically nobody in real life ever says, even when in a suitable situation.
Top of the mornin' is an Irish expression, I think, though probably it sounds outdated even there. Anyway, this is just off the top of my head... (ha ha) Something to look up on the internet. Good article from Lisa, and good comments here. Much food for thought!
Of course sports should be separated by sex. One look at Lia Thomas's big broad shoulders and height should have convinced everyone. She's welcome to be a she anywhere but a women's dressing room and a women's swim team. And it would be good for her to chat with Debbie Hayton and Buck Angel.
I feel like this solution would be fine for the feminine-acting gay guys, but would not be welcome at all by the 40-some year old married men who transition. For that group, it seems the whole point is to force others to acquiesce, and your sensible solution doesn’t meet that need. Unfortunately I think that’s the group primarily funding and pushing the activism and legal changes in our society, so this would never be accepted here.
I do absolutely think that our society needs to become more accepting of gender nonconformity, and that for some transitioners, feeling like they are unable or unwilling to meet society’s expectations for their sex is what leads to their feeling that they must transition.
This is a brilliant idea. Which is to say, doomed. I'm only half joking. While there are several high profile cases of women who identify as male continuing to compete in the female category —Quinn, Nikki Hiltz, Iszaak Henig— and no one has any problem with it because of course they're competing in the correct sex category (and probably would have no career at all in the male category). High profile cases of men who identify as women—Lia Thomas, Emily Bridges, Kristen Worley—never even considered doing whatever body modification they wanted (or accepting the consequences of taking testosterone blockers). And apparently, the governing bodies of their sports didn't consider that option either. They HAD TO be accommodated in the female category. And according to high school trans-identifying boy Maelle Jacques, continuing to compete in the boys' category was not an option because of the threats and bullying he'd receive from other boys, and the mental anguish of "not competing as who he is." Male athletes need to be asked/taught to accept gender nonconforming males, and trans-identifying males need to accept the reality of their sex. Unfortunately, as I wrote about recently, schools (and now Title IX) are teaching that gender identity is real and affects physical performance. The reality of sex is being undermined
Oh I wish society would be more accepting of non-conforming males. I think there is so much pressure “to pass” and it’s pushing people to dangerous medical procedures.
Instead of the women’s sports being the catch all for trans men and trans women alike, why don’t we make men’s teams the catch all? It offers an equalizer/corrective to centuries of women being second class citizens and necessary protection for their spaces (kind of like a conservation/reparations effort).
That's exactly how it works already. Female athletes who could hang with the males are (at least theoretically) allowed to join male teams at the collegiate and professional levels.
There's a reason why we don't see that happening, and it's the same reason why we aren't seeing a billion-dollar lobbying push for "trans men" to be shoehorned into men's sports.
This is being proposed by some sports governing bodies and events. They're changing the men's category to "open." I don't think this will fly with the "you must affirm me as a woman" crowd but I agree it's a logical solution to restricting the female category to women. As long as they don't take testosterone, alas.
From an interview with the soccer player Jaiyah Saelua "...for faʻafafine, there is no pressure to look a certain way or act a certain way. Transitioning only came when I was pressured into the idea that I have to look as passable as possible to live a comfortable life in America."
This is so sad that our western ideas of gender are overwhelming traditional cultures. As Lisa points out, this is the ultimate in colonization.
I appreciate this post, because it outlines issues that at the moment seem unresolvable. Maybe I would like to have it be "no big deal" when I see a man who appears to me to be an autogynophile, but I admit to uncomfortable feelings and don't like that this behavior is being normalized. But of course, I am making assumptions when I see the guy in a dress at the coop. If it was a few years ago, I would hardly have even noticed. The dress isn't a problem for me, but invading women's spaces and taking women's spaces in sports certainly is. And from what I know (or think I know at this point) the demand to be seen as a woman in every regard seems to part and parcel for (most? many? almost all?) autogynophiles.
But as you say, here we are. And the fact is, there won't be a utopian solution. It won't be feminism, it won't be religion, there isn't a magic bullet. There never has been and there never will be. Because coercion will never work long term, from any camp. We can't go back to anything, and it's never been awesome or perfect in any society and I think the sooner we let go of utopian and uncompromising visions, the better. As you point out, there's no acceptance of lesbian women in the Samoan culture. It seems to me that all human societies have a hard time dealing with "gender non-conforming people" (by this I mean visibly and overwhelmingly so) and gay and lesbian people because they are different than most people. But they have always been around, part of humanity, and I believe society is better when gay and lesbian people can and do flourish. They flourish and contribute so much, even when they are pushed down. Another reason it is important that we try to get better about accepting gender non-conformity is that EVERYONE is gender non-conforming in some way or another, even if they aren't obviously so. This acceptance is especially important for women to flourish. The default for our species is to oppress women and gay people. That doesn't make it acceptable, and this is why I am still a liberal, because I want society to be better than the default, and I know we can be. But it's a compromising and messy process. We have to just muddle on through the best we can, trying to expand tolerance, but also protect women's rights. This happens most importantly in conversations like this which can result in the overall culture changing.
This is it: “try to make room for gender nonconforming people without denying reality and without infringing on women’s rights.” Why is this simple solution so hard?
I totally agree with Lisa's perspective & I say so when the topic comes up.
Men need to broaden their ideas about what a man can be.
Everyone needs to quit lying -- especially quit lying to children -- that sex actually can be changed. It can't. You can do plastic surgery & take drugs & be a life-long patient with a host of undesirable side-effects. Explain that to children & teens.
Stop the Lying. The tooth-fairy isn't real and neither is the "female penis" or changing sex.
Nice line: "Men need to broaden their ideas about what a man can be." Indeed. And maybe all of us need to broaden our ideas about what a person can be. Somehow I cringe when men aim to redefine masculinity. I'd prefer to toss it (and femininity), decoupling behavior and attire from sex altogether. (But not ignoring sex). Agreeing with you - just riffing a bit.
The key concept which you so beautifully highlight is the distinction between sex and gender. People have the right to identify based on gender. But no one can change their sex. Women need and deserved sex-based rights which are currently horribly eroded to support fairness and safety in sports, privacy in the locker room.
This post helps highlight that the whole "harm" narrative of men who present as women and feel "harm" if they can't invade women's spaces is really about the fact that in men's spaces they would be shamed. If men in general were more (completely?) accepting of non-conforming males, this whole push into women's spaces would likely evaporate. I'm no fan of the widespread usage of "toxic masculinity", but it's undeniable that the average American male (and likely the average male) is strongly intolerant of non-conforming males in their spaces.
true & that is why these she-males are put onto the responsibility of women & girls.
We need to push back & push back hard.
No males in female space.
No males on female teams.
Trans-women by definition are men.
Saelua never claimed to be female when he was playing and played with the men. Perfect solution. It makes me wonder if some of this issue is grounded in men feeling uncomfortable with feminine men and gatekeeping masculinity or being insecure about their sexuality to a degree. I did read somewhere that Saelua was considering playing in women’s leagues after ‘transitioning’, though I’m not sure if he actually did this. I’m all for dropping the gender stereotypes, just as long as we all understand no-one can change sex. As JK Rowling said “wear what you like” (no, this doesn’t include fetish gear!) I also don’t think it’s possible or desirable to police what people wear in most situations.
Spot on.
I think people get so wrapped up in what they like that they forget other people have preferences, too. I personally don't fancy a man in a dress, for example, but I'm totally okay if a guy does wear one, and even supportive if he's accepting of the fact he IS a man.
I have encountered some in my travels in Tahiti and it has little to do with the western idea of trans. They are basically gay men who have adopted feminine stereotypes of dress and manner. They do not claim to be women and it offends no one.
There is something going on here that transcends the current debate about trans identities. On every trip to the grocery store, Home Depot, or my on general walks about town, I encounter a woman dressed in typical male clothing. On rare occasion I may notice. But, my reaction is more akin to noticing a cool hat or snazzy shirt. There is no shutter, no confusion, no cognitive dissonance. But a man wearing typical female garb does elicit a double-take and a dose of discomfort. Why is this? Why are men no afforded the same grace when it comes to self-expression as women?
Interestingly, the female version of fa'afafine are not particularly tolerated, per Vasey. But here it's the opposite. And I think it's because of homophobia, really—even though we now understand that AGPs are not gay. I think that's where the pressure to be masculine ultimately comes from. At least in the West.
I always thought it was because the feminine is considered inferior, therefore it is intolerable to see a man downgrading his cultural masculinity.
I agree with that too, that women are lower in status, so looking like a "women" is a step down for a man. It's pathetic.
Because males (however dressed) pose a physical threat to females but females do not pose a physical threat to males.
100%
In the US at least, the historical criminalization of crossdressing, such as the so-called three-piece law of early to mid XXth century NYC, have been ••overwhelmingly• weaponized against working-class Women in manual trades or other such jobs, The main target was public lesbianism in general, but Butch lesbians wearing literal work clothes for entirely unglamorous reasons were quite the easy target.
Laws that used a given minimum number of garments or accessories—such as three pieces—to define illegal crossdressing never had a threshold of 1 garment, meaning that these laws would NEVER apply to a man wearing a dress.
I would love to hear more about that! Would you write a guest post?
Also, see Lillian Faderman on this--in her memoir, Naked in the Promised Land, she covers personal experience with these laws--probably should check out her other book on the history of lesbians in the U.S., Odd Girls and Twilight Lovers
Wow, I'd be honored—I'd have to brush up on my sources first but, if the offer stands... •____•
Nice article, well written as alws from You.
Samoan(-American) famílies in my local area—from Samoa proper, not American Samoa (a rarity around here)—have told me two additional fact0ids about fa'afafine:
/1/ Not only do they never compete in Women's or Girls' sports or other athletic competitions, but they in fact NEVER compete directly with Women, in any imaginable type of contest or competition.
And moreover, /2/ the fa'afafine are often enlisted to help widowed and/or elderly Women with the more physically intensive parts of Their domestic work load, as Theiy struggle increasingly to complete all those tasks betd🖤🖤🖤 Imagine if Western "tr@ns womxn" did even a little bit of this type of thing.
BTW
Do people actually SAY "Top of the mornin'" somewhere in the British Isles? lol I've alws thought this was like "Well, well, well"—a phrase that basically all of us have heard from TV/movies, but that basically nobody in real life ever says, even when in a suitable situation.
Haha, I say "well, well, well".
Me too, and add, “what do we have here!?!” where appropriate
🤣
Top of the mornin' is an Irish expression, I think, though probably it sounds outdated even there. Anyway, this is just off the top of my head... (ha ha) Something to look up on the internet. Good article from Lisa, and good comments here. Much food for thought!
Of course sports should be separated by sex. One look at Lia Thomas's big broad shoulders and height should have convinced everyone. She's welcome to be a she anywhere but a women's dressing room and a women's swim team. And it would be good for her to chat with Debbie Hayton and Buck Angel.
I feel like this solution would be fine for the feminine-acting gay guys, but would not be welcome at all by the 40-some year old married men who transition. For that group, it seems the whole point is to force others to acquiesce, and your sensible solution doesn’t meet that need. Unfortunately I think that’s the group primarily funding and pushing the activism and legal changes in our society, so this would never be accepted here.
I do absolutely think that our society needs to become more accepting of gender nonconformity, and that for some transitioners, feeling like they are unable or unwilling to meet society’s expectations for their sex is what leads to their feeling that they must transition.
Sports are divided by sex for clear biological reasons.
Keep it that way.
End of story.
This is a brilliant idea. Which is to say, doomed. I'm only half joking. While there are several high profile cases of women who identify as male continuing to compete in the female category —Quinn, Nikki Hiltz, Iszaak Henig— and no one has any problem with it because of course they're competing in the correct sex category (and probably would have no career at all in the male category). High profile cases of men who identify as women—Lia Thomas, Emily Bridges, Kristen Worley—never even considered doing whatever body modification they wanted (or accepting the consequences of taking testosterone blockers). And apparently, the governing bodies of their sports didn't consider that option either. They HAD TO be accommodated in the female category. And according to high school trans-identifying boy Maelle Jacques, continuing to compete in the boys' category was not an option because of the threats and bullying he'd receive from other boys, and the mental anguish of "not competing as who he is." Male athletes need to be asked/taught to accept gender nonconforming males, and trans-identifying males need to accept the reality of their sex. Unfortunately, as I wrote about recently, schools (and now Title IX) are teaching that gender identity is real and affects physical performance. The reality of sex is being undermined
Oh I wish society would be more accepting of non-conforming males. I think there is so much pressure “to pass” and it’s pushing people to dangerous medical procedures.
Instead of the women’s sports being the catch all for trans men and trans women alike, why don’t we make men’s teams the catch all? It offers an equalizer/corrective to centuries of women being second class citizens and necessary protection for their spaces (kind of like a conservation/reparations effort).
That's exactly how it works already. Female athletes who could hang with the males are (at least theoretically) allowed to join male teams at the collegiate and professional levels.
There's a reason why we don't see that happening, and it's the same reason why we aren't seeing a billion-dollar lobbying push for "trans men" to be shoehorned into men's sports.
This is being proposed by some sports governing bodies and events. They're changing the men's category to "open." I don't think this will fly with the "you must affirm me as a woman" crowd but I agree it's a logical solution to restricting the female category to women. As long as they don't take testosterone, alas.
From an interview with the soccer player Jaiyah Saelua "...for faʻafafine, there is no pressure to look a certain way or act a certain way. Transitioning only came when I was pressured into the idea that I have to look as passable as possible to live a comfortable life in America."
This is so sad that our western ideas of gender are overwhelming traditional cultures. As Lisa points out, this is the ultimate in colonization.
Interview can be found here: https://www.them.us/story/jaiyah-saelua-last-goal-wins-taika-waititi-film
I appreciate this post, because it outlines issues that at the moment seem unresolvable. Maybe I would like to have it be "no big deal" when I see a man who appears to me to be an autogynophile, but I admit to uncomfortable feelings and don't like that this behavior is being normalized. But of course, I am making assumptions when I see the guy in a dress at the coop. If it was a few years ago, I would hardly have even noticed. The dress isn't a problem for me, but invading women's spaces and taking women's spaces in sports certainly is. And from what I know (or think I know at this point) the demand to be seen as a woman in every regard seems to part and parcel for (most? many? almost all?) autogynophiles.
But as you say, here we are. And the fact is, there won't be a utopian solution. It won't be feminism, it won't be religion, there isn't a magic bullet. There never has been and there never will be. Because coercion will never work long term, from any camp. We can't go back to anything, and it's never been awesome or perfect in any society and I think the sooner we let go of utopian and uncompromising visions, the better. As you point out, there's no acceptance of lesbian women in the Samoan culture. It seems to me that all human societies have a hard time dealing with "gender non-conforming people" (by this I mean visibly and overwhelmingly so) and gay and lesbian people because they are different than most people. But they have always been around, part of humanity, and I believe society is better when gay and lesbian people can and do flourish. They flourish and contribute so much, even when they are pushed down. Another reason it is important that we try to get better about accepting gender non-conformity is that EVERYONE is gender non-conforming in some way or another, even if they aren't obviously so. This acceptance is especially important for women to flourish. The default for our species is to oppress women and gay people. That doesn't make it acceptable, and this is why I am still a liberal, because I want society to be better than the default, and I know we can be. But it's a compromising and messy process. We have to just muddle on through the best we can, trying to expand tolerance, but also protect women's rights. This happens most importantly in conversations like this which can result in the overall culture changing.
This is it: “try to make room for gender nonconforming people without denying reality and without infringing on women’s rights.” Why is this simple solution so hard?
I totally agree with Lisa's perspective & I say so when the topic comes up.
Men need to broaden their ideas about what a man can be.
Everyone needs to quit lying -- especially quit lying to children -- that sex actually can be changed. It can't. You can do plastic surgery & take drugs & be a life-long patient with a host of undesirable side-effects. Explain that to children & teens.
Stop the Lying. The tooth-fairy isn't real and neither is the "female penis" or changing sex.
Nice line: "Men need to broaden their ideas about what a man can be." Indeed. And maybe all of us need to broaden our ideas about what a person can be. Somehow I cringe when men aim to redefine masculinity. I'd prefer to toss it (and femininity), decoupling behavior and attire from sex altogether. (But not ignoring sex). Agreeing with you - just riffing a bit.
The key concept which you so beautifully highlight is the distinction between sex and gender. People have the right to identify based on gender. But no one can change their sex. Women need and deserved sex-based rights which are currently horribly eroded to support fairness and safety in sports, privacy in the locker room.