I want to thank you for this excellent conversation and for allowing me to comment on it. I want to offer a perspective as a conservative that you may or may not have considered.
I really do care about people, as most conservatives do, and most people overall. Stories like Penni’s are a good reminder to me that actual trans people are not crazy and didn’t choose this and just want to live their lives, while at the same needing a little extra compassion, because ultimately, this is difficult to deal with. It makes me question the motivation of the activists who want to be sure that Penny, and Buck Angel, and Blaire White can’t be heard – these are people who can move the needle towards acceptance. People I would refer other conservatives to if they don’t already see that perspective.
The activists would rather keep me in the world of Matt Walsh, where I can be dismissed as a right-wing bigot, than listening to actual trans people and their loved ones who maintain the reality of biological sex. Penny, Buck, and Blaire are the real danger because people like my daughter might listen to her and conclude that “trans women are not women but that’s ok”. Matt Walsh isn’t going to change her mind, but Penny might. And this might be the real reason for the strategy. If the young people stay on board with this message, it doesn’t matter how many old fogeys don’t. I hope the young people grow out of it, but I lose hope for this every day.
'actual trans people are not crazy and didn’t choose this"
"trans" identification is often a choice. in many cases people who choose to ID as "trans" dont have any dysphoria at all. pro trans groups emphasize that ppl who ID as trans dont need to have dysphoria. so, yes its a choice.
"(they) just want to live their lives"
so does anyone. but when bio males seek the right to enter womens spaces, that not just living their life. thats placing women at risk and placing womens hard won rights back 200 years. maybe some "trans" ppl dont support this . maybe u should ask them before claiming they just want to live their lives. gender ideology erases the rights of a half doz groups and harms kids and dysphoric ppl. often trans ID claim to just want to live their lives while simultaneously supporting polcies that rob rights from others.
Coastal, this is totally off point, but just FYI, I spent a really fun afternoon yesterday finding links to all the songs on the Broadview Soundtrack, listening to them all, adding a couple songs in response to those you and David had put up, and made a mega list of them all. I posted it where we were trading songs in the Wed open discussion post, but if you can’t find it, I will try posting it where you are more likely (I hope) to see it.
Hahaha, every line of this! Coastal Elite, I would say you’ve got a pretty good turn of phrase yourself: “It’s always the dudes that have the beautiful muses...or the girls in the half shell.” 💕🎵💕
Carly Simon: https://youtu.be/j13oJajXx0M You’re So Vain (I’m pretty sure a lot of this was shot in my neighborhood!)
Little Feat Fat Man in the Bathtub (and this is likely a stretch) reminded me of this:
Grateful Dead: https://youtu.be/pafY6sZt0FE Truckin (but I am allowed, I think, because I did see them live, three times, the first at Fillmore West 1969)
OK, and also Ravel. Well, there, the list is long (and yet David’s selection was new to me, thanks!), but I’ll go with the marvelous Martha Argerich, Charles Dutoit conducting: Ravel Piano Concerto in G major & Laideronnette(from Ma Mère l'Oye): https://youtu.be/wMm6AR4KN1A
Yes...always. “The Beautiful Ones” https://youtu.be/xSJAeWPEWTw i love that song and of course “Nothing Compares 2U” particularly the Chris Cornell cover https://youtu.be/IuUDRU9-HRk and if you need a real pick me up...the George Harrison Tribute YouTube” While my Guitar Gently Weeps”. https://youtu.be/dWRCooFKk3c Prince played that guitar...tossed it up to the heavens and George Harrison caught it...that’s definitely what happened. Oh Dani Harrison is playing guitar with too and is so stoked to see Prince. And...the Kennedy Center tribute to Led Zeppelin with Heart!!! Omg Obama in the audience singing along. Better than an antidepressant. This is so much more fun than talking about fears and worries. https://youtu.be/2cZ_EFAmj08
Haha, well, I copied and saved them at the time, as I knew I could not count on memory to serve! BTW, if you don’t have time to listen to the whole Argerich/Ravel, the encore I think will blow your mind, as it did mine. Here is why, and in posting this, I had you and all the moms at Broadview completely top of mind: https://prufrocksdilemma.wordpress.com/2023/04/07/what-some-have-forgotten-or-perhaps-never-knew/ (and yes, Prufrock’s Dilemma is me).🎶🥳🎶
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the idea that someone would still consider herself female while calling herself a trans boy or man. Why not just live as a gender-nonconforming woman? Why adopt a new name and pronouns and undergo risky medical treatments? Sorry, I don't mean to be insensitive or unsympathetic; I just really don't understand why anyone who doesn't believe she can truly change her sex (and there are sadly a lot of people who *do* believe that) would put herself through the ordeal of transitioning rather than just being a very nontraditional woman.
Growing up in the 1960s, I never thought of myself as a girl, and puberty was extremely distressing for me. Luckily the diagnosis of gender dysphoria didn't yet exist, and transitioning wasn't an option. I was able to go through life defying stereotypes, and I eventually had a child of my own. It makes me sad now to see so many girls renouncing their sex just when women have finally (in the West anyway) achieved something approaching equality.
Sex is not a spectrum, but within each sex there are widely differing brains, hormone levels, and whatever else might make someone more or less feminine. We need that variety in the sexes to keep stereotypes from becoming entrenched. The regressive belief that you must be the opposite sex if you aren't feminine or masculine enough is setting equality back by decades.
Not saying it applies to your kid, who’s probably heard of this, but I wonder what would happen if we normalized “stemme” lesbians (portmanteau of stud and femme). That’s what lesbians I know call a girl who looks more like an adolescent boy than a typical butch lesbian. I could see someone transitioning because they didn’t fit into the femme-butch/stud binary and would feel better if they could pass as a boy.
not sure if uv ever read this list of reasons titled "why are so many girls deciding to be boys?". there are literially a 1000 reasons ppl decide to do this. it has nothing to do with brain waves or anything like that. some examples from this list of 15 reasons - cultural expectations of femininity placed on women, internalized homophobia. but in addition to all these issues is the widespread misinformation regarding the benefits. this is where the lies come in. evidence show that people are miserable after they make this choice. but misinformation has convinced them they will be happier. thats called fraud.
Thanks for the reference, Penny. I haven't read the whole article yet, and probably don't have the background or brainpower to totally understand it, but if I'm correctly interpreting the excerpt below, the study found an association between some aspects of brain function and a person's perception of his/her body, showing how the brains of people who perceive their bodies to be of a different sex may differ from those who don't have that perception. It seems that the perception itself, however it arose, could be causing the brain findings, rather than the other way around.
"An important issue in the neurobiology of GD which has hitherto received relatively scant attention is whether GD could be associated with specific patterns of body perception, and if so, whether this is linked to functional neural signatures in certain cerebral networks. One theoretical possibility, which is also hypothesized in the present work, is that in GD individuals the typical physical traits of their gender assigned at birth are not incorporated into their self-representation, and that this is associated with specific functional connectivity signatures in the brain."
And regardless of how one's brain reflects one's self-perception, or vice versa, it still seems that there can be more than one way to alleviate whatever discomfort one has with one's body. Modifying the body, name, and pronouns to match the self-perception seems like a very superficial way of dealing with it, as if physical characteristics and presentation are the most important thing about a person.
While firmly maintaining that medical interventions for minors should be off-limits, it's important to note that individuals identifying as transgender don't seem to be causing harm to themselves or others. The crux of this matter is adopting a nuanced and well-rounded perspective, especially when it comes to the thorny subject of adolescent gender nonconformity. It's crucial that we move away from relying on stereotypes as the sole determining factor for identifying someone as "trans."
Additionally, there's a lingering concern regarding the potential link between autism and transgender identity. It's an area in which I hope more research will be conducted, as it's essential to clarify this relationship with as much accuracy and depth as possible. Let's encourage further studies to ensure a proper understanding of this complex issue.. See my video for a possible explanation between trans and autism/BPD.
Thank you both for a thoughtful conversation. I appreciate Penny Adrian's sharing her experiences and her perspective, and the ways in which she's navigated her role as parent of an adult child and as a community member. She mentions a couple times the neurological basis of being transgender. I'm wondering if folks can point me to more about this. I went down the path of asking about this a few years ago at UCSF and was offered this article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27070350/. It did not seem very conclusive and I wonder what other sources there are on this topic? Thanks
every gender biz stat, claim and study is a lie. including the idea of "trans brains" this or that. sorry if that sounds crass. but its true. show me your gender biz stat or claim and i will show you how its a complete fraud.
I don't think that's crass, but I do think it's alarming. One of the things that seems so important for the teens and young adults who find themselves mixed up in this is to learn how to self-advocate in medical situations. When your child turns 18 and doctors are no longer willing to communicate with you as a parent, that 18-year-old needs coaching on how to navigate the medical world. It's very hard in almost all circumstances in the US to be a patient and many times harder to be a teen patient.
parents always only do whats possible. when it comes to influence of a child, every parent has much more influence than they imagine, even parents of adults who have been conned by gender biz propaganda. a parent can provide a light to guide a child. or even shine a light that remains on, even if the child choses the darkness of ignorance. but what you suggest is that parents turn out their light of truth and join the child in confusion. thats dumb. of course, there are some kids that are so determined theres no stopping them from self destruction. just ask any parent whose child has a severe drug or alcohol addition. no one would suggest parents of an addicted child support thier addiction. and if they did, the parent would be blamed by the child for the inevitable results of this addiction, just as children often later blame parents who affirm wrong gender
Not sure where in my comment I suggested that parents "turn out their light of truth and join the child in confusion". My concern (and experience) is with the HIPAA laws that restrict parent access to providers, making it extra important that young adults know how to navigate health care. Of course, a parent can coach and support a young adult child - and I agree with you, that's not always easy or straightforward. I just wish that the health care system also offered more on how to be a smart patient.
Thank you so much for conducting and sharing this interview. Penny Adrian is an incredibly intelligent and well-spoken messenger. What a treasure this interview is. Thank you!!
Thank you Penny and Lisa for this very interesting interview. Penny, I've seen your thoughtful comments in the various substacks that you and I subscribe to, and it was really nice to hear you speak about your experience.
It's kind of neat that I heard this interview the day after I wrote a comment on the Wednesday open thread saying something very similar: our North American society (I'm in Canada) is flattening difference in the name of tolerance, and is trying to eliminate discrimination and other forms of perceived bad behavior by changing language. I'm glad we agree.
I did want to comment on the neurological/physiological aspect of GD. I, personally, have no doubt that some people really do experience very stressful, even debilitating, discomfort in their bodies, specifically relating to secondary sexual characteristics. Maybe there's something neurological there, some difference in the brain or elsewhere that makes people feel this disconnect. There are, after all, people who feel like their limbs don't belong to them, and those people will almost always eventually try to cut the limb off. It is possible that the only treatment for these illnesses is surgery (or hormonal interventions). But the brain is such a complicated organ! And our consciousness is probably kind of unfathomable (those who say that our consciousness is somehow "produced" by our brain are really wrong, imho). The myriad of ways in which we perceive ourselves, our place in our society, our relationships with other humans, are just too complex for us to ever be able to say for sure that sex dysphoria is neurological. Or, perhaps it would be more accurate to say: we will never be able to figure out what exactly makes a person deeply sex dysphoric.
What's my point, then? I guess if I think in terms of how to further constructive dialogue and societal acceptance of a variety of males and females, I'd like to avoid the "born this way" narrative. Practically speaking, it has not served society well. It maybe helped same-sex attracted people gain legal rights, but then it was promptly hijacked by the trans activists to explain why males should be allowed in women's rape shelters. And I'm sure that soon enough it will be used to explain trans-racialism and trans-ableism, and you name it. This approach takes away agency and presumes that a person who feels a certain way *must* act a certain way, and states that the rest of society *must* accommodate them.
I think I would rather have a world where adult people take their feelings into consideration when making choices about their lives, and where other people can choose to respect these choices or not to respect them. As long as there are laws in place to protect everyone from discrimination in workplaces, housing, legal issues, etc., I think we can safely abandon the "born this way" narrative.
I know folks here are aware of this, but, while I am hoping more will do so--and appreciate Penny’s insights about how much this is needed--I value enormously the transgender people who are already speaking up. One I particularly appreciate is Dr María Inés de la Cruz. (@Strobe_Lightly).
Certainly the most important thing parents must maintain is support of any child or young adult, including those who have fallen prey to gender ideology misinformation. however, theres very little evidence that parents arent supportive, despite often promoted false claims to the contrary. while maintaining support, parents shouldnt affirm a differnt gender identity. parents who affirm opposite gender ID of a child are often blamed for this disastrous choice when the child grows into adulthood. parents who retroactively claim they "didnt know what to do" and "i was only going by what experts told me" and "you were so sure you were trans" wont be off the hook. the individual harmed by gender biz misinformation will blame and does blame their parents most of all - it was these parents who ultimately allowed this harm, often resulting in permanant destruction of the parent child relationship after the child becomes an adult and finally has full grasp of the issues involved and how they were manipulated into exchanging their lifelong physical and mental health to address temporary child discomfort all people experience. its trickier if the affected individual is already an adult. but the same issues and effects still apply.
not sure how old this persons "son" is. but its false to say social transition leads to happiness. its a temporary placebo that turns into a major crisis within a few years. reviews done on the subject by governments of UK, sweden finland and others found social transition does more harm than good; many are severely harmed by it. most kids grow out of gender dysphoria, unless they start meds or do social transition. if either of those occur, their dysphoria persists and buckets of new problems occur that otherwise would never had happened. in most cases this action thought to be kind is actually the cruelest thing one can do to a child.
Parents options when child reports dysphoria. option 1 - get the kid to a non affirming therapist to discover the real reason the child has dysphoria (maybe something the parent has control over like environment or stress). most kids grow out of gender dysphoria and forget all about it leading to lifelong happiness, unless opposite gender is affirmed. option 2 - social transition in most cases leads to gender meds and lifelong dysphoria and tons of new problems that can go on for an individuals entire life. at some point the individual blames the parent for this huge mistake that prevents lifelong mental health and often the child as an adult ends the relationship with the parent as a result, as the parent has abandoned their primary responsibility of protecting their child from harm.
I want to thank you for this excellent conversation and for allowing me to comment on it. I want to offer a perspective as a conservative that you may or may not have considered.
I really do care about people, as most conservatives do, and most people overall. Stories like Penni’s are a good reminder to me that actual trans people are not crazy and didn’t choose this and just want to live their lives, while at the same needing a little extra compassion, because ultimately, this is difficult to deal with. It makes me question the motivation of the activists who want to be sure that Penny, and Buck Angel, and Blaire White can’t be heard – these are people who can move the needle towards acceptance. People I would refer other conservatives to if they don’t already see that perspective.
The activists would rather keep me in the world of Matt Walsh, where I can be dismissed as a right-wing bigot, than listening to actual trans people and their loved ones who maintain the reality of biological sex. Penny, Buck, and Blaire are the real danger because people like my daughter might listen to her and conclude that “trans women are not women but that’s ok”. Matt Walsh isn’t going to change her mind, but Penny might. And this might be the real reason for the strategy. If the young people stay on board with this message, it doesn’t matter how many old fogeys don’t. I hope the young people grow out of it, but I lose hope for this every day.
Really Interesting perspective. Glad you shared it.
'actual trans people are not crazy and didn’t choose this"
"trans" identification is often a choice. in many cases people who choose to ID as "trans" dont have any dysphoria at all. pro trans groups emphasize that ppl who ID as trans dont need to have dysphoria. so, yes its a choice.
"(they) just want to live their lives"
so does anyone. but when bio males seek the right to enter womens spaces, that not just living their life. thats placing women at risk and placing womens hard won rights back 200 years. maybe some "trans" ppl dont support this . maybe u should ask them before claiming they just want to live their lives. gender ideology erases the rights of a half doz groups and harms kids and dysphoric ppl. often trans ID claim to just want to live their lives while simultaneously supporting polcies that rob rights from others.
Coastal, this is totally off point, but just FYI, I spent a really fun afternoon yesterday finding links to all the songs on the Broadview Soundtrack, listening to them all, adding a couple songs in response to those you and David had put up, and made a mega list of them all. I posted it where we were trading songs in the Wed open discussion post, but if you can’t find it, I will try posting it where you are more likely (I hope) to see it.
Hahaha, every line of this! Coastal Elite, I would say you’ve got a pretty good turn of phrase yourself: “It’s always the dudes that have the beautiful muses...or the girls in the half shell.” 💕🎵💕
Coastal: I don’t think you saw the complete list on the other post, so here it is:
OK, here it be in its entirely, to date
THE BROADVIEW SOUNDTRACK
First, some additions inspired by Coastal Elite and David Stafford, and of course, forever and always, Lisa Selin Davis!
Famous break-up songs (prompted by “A Case of You”)
Joan Baez: https://youtu.be/ptxxq5PUHEk Diamonds and Rust
Carly Simon: https://youtu.be/j13oJajXx0M You’re So Vain (I’m pretty sure a lot of this was shot in my neighborhood!)
Little Feat Fat Man in the Bathtub (and this is likely a stretch) reminded me of this:
Grateful Dead: https://youtu.be/pafY6sZt0FE Truckin (but I am allowed, I think, because I did see them live, three times, the first at Fillmore West 1969)
OK, and also Ravel. Well, there, the list is long (and yet David’s selection was new to me, thanks!), but I’ll go with the marvelous Martha Argerich, Charles Dutoit conducting: Ravel Piano Concerto in G major & Laideronnette(from Ma Mère l'Oye): https://youtu.be/wMm6AR4KN1A
So, now, back to the list:
First set:
https://youtu.be/5r6A2NexF88 (Coastal Elite—The Joke)
https://youtu.be/-vKONRcAJnk (Leonard Cohen — Anthem)
https://youtu.be/sjvHWs3Vc58 (Radical Rebella—Stuck in the Middle)
https://youtu.be/0Vo4lNb0w48 (David Stafford—Cruel to Be Kind)
https://youtu.be/62gjmtQ3cCE (Coastal Elite—Son of A)
https://youtu.be/qURAnrk30ng (Susan Scheid—Turn, Turn, Turn)
Coastal Elite:
1. Right on Time Brandi Carlile https://youtu.be/tOpWqWK0q4U
2. Golden Slumbers the Beatles https://youtu.be/hwi2ynHPB80
3. You can close Your Eyes by James Taylor https://youtu.be/mjksn8mEt8M
4. Nathaniel Rateliff “It’s Still Alright” https://youtu.be/Hw4MiegZxsU
5. Beautiful Boy John Lennon https://youtu.be/1BZkYfqa4Fs
6. American Tune Paul Simon https://youtu.be/AE3kKUEY5WU
7. Wilco Jesus Don’t Cry https://youtu.be/efq95Pfqt5U
8. Lizzo Juice https://youtu.be/XaCrQL_8eMY
9. Leave it all in the Rearview by Mac Miller https://youtu.be/9Gbl-IDp1qc
10. Joni Mitchell “A Case of You” (she wrote it about L Cohen) https://youtu.be/pOKESEtmhis
Coastal Elite re Prince:
Yes...always. “The Beautiful Ones” https://youtu.be/xSJAeWPEWTw i love that song and of course “Nothing Compares 2U” particularly the Chris Cornell cover https://youtu.be/IuUDRU9-HRk and if you need a real pick me up...the George Harrison Tribute YouTube” While my Guitar Gently Weeps”. https://youtu.be/dWRCooFKk3c Prince played that guitar...tossed it up to the heavens and George Harrison caught it...that’s definitely what happened. Oh Dani Harrison is playing guitar with too and is so stoked to see Prince. And...the Kennedy Center tribute to Led Zeppelin with Heart!!! Omg Obama in the audience singing along. Better than an antidepressant. This is so much more fun than talking about fears and worries. https://youtu.be/2cZ_EFAmj08
Susan Scheid:
Bill Evans (what I grew up with): https://youtu.be/shIc0iaFW7Q (My Romance)
Doc Watson and Bill Monroe (my bluegrass period): https://youtu.be/CvyXBPaC89c (I’ll Fly Away)
Contemporaneous (my Hudson Valley period): https://youtu.be/CuZUcFsUthE (Yasmin Williams (arr. Zachary Ritter) – Sunshowers)
Marin Marais (my early music period): https://youtu.be/cabA5Or5CK8 Marin Marais : Suite d'un goût étranger - XIV. L'Américaine
Gershwin (a perennial favorite) https://youtu.be/dYrctWr9zv0 Clayton Stephenson performing Concerto in F
David Stafford
Ravel
Ravel: Trois Chansons - 2. Trois Beaux Oiseaux Du Paradis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af1ql0GkmBw
Stone Poneys Driftin’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEeJXQxX8OQ
Earl Klugh Doctor Macumba
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi73VOh-EXY&list=RDxi73VOh-EXY&start_radio=1
Magic Sam I feel Good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2Q9eWf2ul8
Little Feat Fat Man in the Bathtub
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS1k205YA1s
Haha, well, I copied and saved them at the time, as I knew I could not count on memory to serve! BTW, if you don’t have time to listen to the whole Argerich/Ravel, the encore I think will blow your mind, as it did mine. Here is why, and in posting this, I had you and all the moms at Broadview completely top of mind: https://prufrocksdilemma.wordpress.com/2023/04/07/what-some-have-forgotten-or-perhaps-never-knew/ (and yes, Prufrock’s Dilemma is me).🎶🥳🎶
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the idea that someone would still consider herself female while calling herself a trans boy or man. Why not just live as a gender-nonconforming woman? Why adopt a new name and pronouns and undergo risky medical treatments? Sorry, I don't mean to be insensitive or unsympathetic; I just really don't understand why anyone who doesn't believe she can truly change her sex (and there are sadly a lot of people who *do* believe that) would put herself through the ordeal of transitioning rather than just being a very nontraditional woman.
Growing up in the 1960s, I never thought of myself as a girl, and puberty was extremely distressing for me. Luckily the diagnosis of gender dysphoria didn't yet exist, and transitioning wasn't an option. I was able to go through life defying stereotypes, and I eventually had a child of my own. It makes me sad now to see so many girls renouncing their sex just when women have finally (in the West anyway) achieved something approaching equality.
Sex is not a spectrum, but within each sex there are widely differing brains, hormone levels, and whatever else might make someone more or less feminine. We need that variety in the sexes to keep stereotypes from becoming entrenched. The regressive belief that you must be the opposite sex if you aren't feminine or masculine enough is setting equality back by decades.
"Mom, I'm not as masculine as a butch lesbian!"
Not saying it applies to your kid, who’s probably heard of this, but I wonder what would happen if we normalized “stemme” lesbians (portmanteau of stud and femme). That’s what lesbians I know call a girl who looks more like an adolescent boy than a typical butch lesbian. I could see someone transitioning because they didn’t fit into the femme-butch/stud binary and would feel better if they could pass as a boy.
not sure if uv ever read this list of reasons titled "why are so many girls deciding to be boys?". there are literially a 1000 reasons ppl decide to do this. it has nothing to do with brain waves or anything like that. some examples from this list of 15 reasons - cultural expectations of femininity placed on women, internalized homophobia. but in addition to all these issues is the widespread misinformation regarding the benefits. this is where the lies come in. evidence show that people are miserable after they make this choice. but misinformation has convinced them they will be happier. thats called fraud.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1587566678858256394.html
Thanks for the reference, Penny. I haven't read the whole article yet, and probably don't have the background or brainpower to totally understand it, but if I'm correctly interpreting the excerpt below, the study found an association between some aspects of brain function and a person's perception of his/her body, showing how the brains of people who perceive their bodies to be of a different sex may differ from those who don't have that perception. It seems that the perception itself, however it arose, could be causing the brain findings, rather than the other way around.
"An important issue in the neurobiology of GD which has hitherto received relatively scant attention is whether GD could be associated with specific patterns of body perception, and if so, whether this is linked to functional neural signatures in certain cerebral networks. One theoretical possibility, which is also hypothesized in the present work, is that in GD individuals the typical physical traits of their gender assigned at birth are not incorporated into their self-representation, and that this is associated with specific functional connectivity signatures in the brain."
And regardless of how one's brain reflects one's self-perception, or vice versa, it still seems that there can be more than one way to alleviate whatever discomfort one has with one's body. Modifying the body, name, and pronouns to match the self-perception seems like a very superficial way of dealing with it, as if physical characteristics and presentation are the most important thing about a person.
Penny Adrian: what a wonderful Mom you are. Respect.
While firmly maintaining that medical interventions for minors should be off-limits, it's important to note that individuals identifying as transgender don't seem to be causing harm to themselves or others. The crux of this matter is adopting a nuanced and well-rounded perspective, especially when it comes to the thorny subject of adolescent gender nonconformity. It's crucial that we move away from relying on stereotypes as the sole determining factor for identifying someone as "trans."
Additionally, there's a lingering concern regarding the potential link between autism and transgender identity. It's an area in which I hope more research will be conducted, as it's essential to clarify this relationship with as much accuracy and depth as possible. Let's encourage further studies to ensure a proper understanding of this complex issue.. See my video for a possible explanation between trans and autism/BPD.
https://youtu.be/ntZRG2j-5w4?t=2913
Thank you both for a thoughtful conversation. I appreciate Penny Adrian's sharing her experiences and her perspective, and the ways in which she's navigated her role as parent of an adult child and as a community member. She mentions a couple times the neurological basis of being transgender. I'm wondering if folks can point me to more about this. I went down the path of asking about this a few years ago at UCSF and was offered this article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27070350/. It did not seem very conclusive and I wonder what other sources there are on this topic? Thanks
every gender biz stat, claim and study is a lie. including the idea of "trans brains" this or that. sorry if that sounds crass. but its true. show me your gender biz stat or claim and i will show you how its a complete fraud.
https://www.transgendertrend.com/brain-research/
I don't think that's crass, but I do think it's alarming. One of the things that seems so important for the teens and young adults who find themselves mixed up in this is to learn how to self-advocate in medical situations. When your child turns 18 and doctors are no longer willing to communicate with you as a parent, that 18-year-old needs coaching on how to navigate the medical world. It's very hard in almost all circumstances in the US to be a patient and many times harder to be a teen patient.
parents always only do whats possible. when it comes to influence of a child, every parent has much more influence than they imagine, even parents of adults who have been conned by gender biz propaganda. a parent can provide a light to guide a child. or even shine a light that remains on, even if the child choses the darkness of ignorance. but what you suggest is that parents turn out their light of truth and join the child in confusion. thats dumb. of course, there are some kids that are so determined theres no stopping them from self destruction. just ask any parent whose child has a severe drug or alcohol addition. no one would suggest parents of an addicted child support thier addiction. and if they did, the parent would be blamed by the child for the inevitable results of this addiction, just as children often later blame parents who affirm wrong gender
Not sure where in my comment I suggested that parents "turn out their light of truth and join the child in confusion". My concern (and experience) is with the HIPAA laws that restrict parent access to providers, making it extra important that young adults know how to navigate health care. Of course, a parent can coach and support a young adult child - and I agree with you, that's not always easy or straightforward. I just wish that the health care system also offered more on how to be a smart patient.
welp, i never listened to the podcast or whatever was presented. so perhaps im not following.
Thank you so much for conducting and sharing this interview. Penny Adrian is an incredibly intelligent and well-spoken messenger. What a treasure this interview is. Thank you!!
Thank you Penny and Lisa for this very interesting interview. Penny, I've seen your thoughtful comments in the various substacks that you and I subscribe to, and it was really nice to hear you speak about your experience.
It's kind of neat that I heard this interview the day after I wrote a comment on the Wednesday open thread saying something very similar: our North American society (I'm in Canada) is flattening difference in the name of tolerance, and is trying to eliminate discrimination and other forms of perceived bad behavior by changing language. I'm glad we agree.
I did want to comment on the neurological/physiological aspect of GD. I, personally, have no doubt that some people really do experience very stressful, even debilitating, discomfort in their bodies, specifically relating to secondary sexual characteristics. Maybe there's something neurological there, some difference in the brain or elsewhere that makes people feel this disconnect. There are, after all, people who feel like their limbs don't belong to them, and those people will almost always eventually try to cut the limb off. It is possible that the only treatment for these illnesses is surgery (or hormonal interventions). But the brain is such a complicated organ! And our consciousness is probably kind of unfathomable (those who say that our consciousness is somehow "produced" by our brain are really wrong, imho). The myriad of ways in which we perceive ourselves, our place in our society, our relationships with other humans, are just too complex for us to ever be able to say for sure that sex dysphoria is neurological. Or, perhaps it would be more accurate to say: we will never be able to figure out what exactly makes a person deeply sex dysphoric.
What's my point, then? I guess if I think in terms of how to further constructive dialogue and societal acceptance of a variety of males and females, I'd like to avoid the "born this way" narrative. Practically speaking, it has not served society well. It maybe helped same-sex attracted people gain legal rights, but then it was promptly hijacked by the trans activists to explain why males should be allowed in women's rape shelters. And I'm sure that soon enough it will be used to explain trans-racialism and trans-ableism, and you name it. This approach takes away agency and presumes that a person who feels a certain way *must* act a certain way, and states that the rest of society *must* accommodate them.
I think I would rather have a world where adult people take their feelings into consideration when making choices about their lives, and where other people can choose to respect these choices or not to respect them. As long as there are laws in place to protect everyone from discrimination in workplaces, housing, legal issues, etc., I think we can safely abandon the "born this way" narrative.
I know folks here are aware of this, but, while I am hoping more will do so--and appreciate Penny’s insights about how much this is needed--I value enormously the transgender people who are already speaking up. One I particularly appreciate is Dr María Inés de la Cruz. (@Strobe_Lightly).
This is a NYT's article written 35 yrs ago which succinctly and definitively sums up just how different men and women are. https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/14/magazine/body-and-mind-the-aggressors.html?smid=em-share
Certainly the most important thing parents must maintain is support of any child or young adult, including those who have fallen prey to gender ideology misinformation. however, theres very little evidence that parents arent supportive, despite often promoted false claims to the contrary. while maintaining support, parents shouldnt affirm a differnt gender identity. parents who affirm opposite gender ID of a child are often blamed for this disastrous choice when the child grows into adulthood. parents who retroactively claim they "didnt know what to do" and "i was only going by what experts told me" and "you were so sure you were trans" wont be off the hook. the individual harmed by gender biz misinformation will blame and does blame their parents most of all - it was these parents who ultimately allowed this harm, often resulting in permanant destruction of the parent child relationship after the child becomes an adult and finally has full grasp of the issues involved and how they were manipulated into exchanging their lifelong physical and mental health to address temporary child discomfort all people experience. its trickier if the affected individual is already an adult. but the same issues and effects still apply.
not sure how old this persons "son" is. but its false to say social transition leads to happiness. its a temporary placebo that turns into a major crisis within a few years. reviews done on the subject by governments of UK, sweden finland and others found social transition does more harm than good; many are severely harmed by it. most kids grow out of gender dysphoria, unless they start meds or do social transition. if either of those occur, their dysphoria persists and buckets of new problems occur that otherwise would never had happened. in most cases this action thought to be kind is actually the cruelest thing one can do to a child.
Parents options when child reports dysphoria. option 1 - get the kid to a non affirming therapist to discover the real reason the child has dysphoria (maybe something the parent has control over like environment or stress). most kids grow out of gender dysphoria and forget all about it leading to lifelong happiness, unless opposite gender is affirmed. option 2 - social transition in most cases leads to gender meds and lifelong dysphoria and tons of new problems that can go on for an individuals entire life. at some point the individual blames the parent for this huge mistake that prevents lifelong mental health and often the child as an adult ends the relationship with the parent as a result, as the parent has abandoned their primary responsibility of protecting their child from harm.