Look, why are we nickle and diming over ages and individual procedures here? We have been pulled into a technical debate and are getting distracted from the ludicrous core premise. Changing sex is not possible. Wanting to change sex or believing it is possible is based on hurt and delusion. Normalizing this as a pathway for children is wrong. Can we not lose the thread?
After 3-4 months of trying to get my head around this issue, I am done entertaining this dark bid for disembodiment. As a progressive and trauma therapist, all I see is trauma breeding trauma and a bunch of tantrums and distraction tactics that take away from having the important, grounded conversations we need to have.
I may be reading this through my own biased lens due to our personal experiences, but I feel like the goal of SOC8 is still to justify medically transitioning any parent or teen who wants it and that all the things included in SOC 8 about social contagion, ASD, and mental health are to provide plausible deniability and cover against future lawsuits for themselves and those who claim they are following WPATH standards. I have been unable to find anything in SOC8 that explicitly states, “some children and teens should not receive any form of medical transition” or “gender dysphoria is the wrong diagnosis for so be children and teens” or “it’s possible that in some children and teens that gender dysphoria and a desire to transition is an unhealthy and ineffective coping mechanism that should be avoided.” Without specifically acknowledging these things may be true for some children and teens, all the other recommendations about mental health, ASD, and social contagion seem like they are just providing a box to mindlessly check off and say “yes we thought about this” without REALLY considering other perspectives and treatments.
I know some of the authors and I firmly believe that they want to continue to be able to offer these interventions, which they believe can be safe and effective, and to acknowledge what's going wrong—but that acknowledgment is so enraging to certain factions that they have to downplay it to the point where it doesn't actually impact the recommendations, which makes the inclusion moot.
Thank you so much for this additional insight. I wish something could be done to change this dynamic of enraged individuals and the doctors trying to either appease them or thread an impossible needle. These watered down recommendations satisfy no one and our children are the ultimate losers
This is no way to create medical guidelines--trying to appease enraged individuals.
Why do the people at WPATH think this is the way to do anything?
There are actually standards for when a medical procedure can be recommended, I believe, and it's insane that these incredibly dangerous interventions are being done so indiscriminately, given the inadequate evidence base for benefit and the enormous harm being done to a few, and unknown, untracked harm not being checked for the many.
They believe they are safe and effective but they haven't shown it. That is why we have the scientific method, because people, even very smart, wise, and experienced people, can believe something wrong. They have shown no justification for departing from careful studies with outcomes tracked and a thorough informed consent including disclosing the experimental nature of these interventions and observed adverse outcomes, except that some of the people who have had this treatment are happy with it. They have no idea what has happened to all the people they treated this way.
An airline tells you 10% of the flights arrive fine. You don't know if the rest crashed or what happened. Do you take the airline? Do you consent to your child being sterilized, taking steroids/anti-androgens/estrogen, having genitals and breasts removed or modified?
I feel like if you pull the lens back, we see a bigger problem that needs to be named and pressed head on: there is a foundational belief that gender identity is fundamentally different than everything we know to be true about child and adolescent development, good therapy, good medical practice, good educational practices, and good scientific research. Those promoting this have declared the equivalent of saying their beliefs and actions are exempt from this canon of basic knowledge and functions on its own very different set of rules. It’s like saying “the laws of physics and everything we know about engineering are used for building bridges apply to how we build all bridges, except for that one over there.” You’d have to explain WHY that bridge is so different that the laws of physics don’t apply. That’s not happening with this issue.
I wouldn't trust a thing out of WPATH though. This new set of "guidelines" and their evasions proves it even more. Still, thank you for your enlightening article.
Why is there even a question as to “what’s the safest and most effective way”? Such a silly question. It’s a no brainer! Wait until the human brain is done growing and changing. Approx 22-25 years of age. A proven fact of science. All this ridiculous surgery will still never change your biology. When they dig up your bones, scientists will still check off the gender box you were born into. These gender surgeries only create further trauma, medically and psychologically. Let every child grow up and make their own decisions as a mature adult. All this ridiculous controversy is wrong on every medical, ethical and psychological level. To dispute science makes no sense. If a child wants to be the opposite sex, then dress appropriately and go for it! I guarantee that more kids than not, will come full circle and adapt to the sex they were born in. You can change their bodies medically and chemically, but you’ll never change their minds. You’ll only desecrate healthy bodies and create medical catastrophic consequences down the road. But hey, I’m sure every professional will knock down my opinion with all their book smarts. I speak from the school of hard knocks and my heart. Leave these kids bodies alone. Nobody has the right to touch them until they are legally old enough and mature enough. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!
Yes, talk therapy works! And when the child has loving parents, it works even better. I'm afraid many of the youngsters who want to "transition" (medically and surgically) may not have the kind of parents they deserve though. The desire to radically alter one's sexual body is a sign of mental illness in my opinion. Our society (US anyway) is now promoting this mental illness in the young. It's despicable.
Hi! I agree too. When I was young, it was called "androgyny" for a young person, male or female, to dress how they pleased. I swear there was backlash against that, the same way there has been backlash against the women's movement and LGB rights. When I look at transgender ideology, that's all I see, backlash. Not to mention it's bad enough the way it's harming kids, while making a greedy, sociopathic medical industry lots and lots of money.
For anyone regretting and thinking of suing for medical malpractice: Remember to consider including your parents as defendants. Once a child turns 18 they can sue their parents for “abuse or neglect”.
There are some kids of Hollywood actors who are so very young when they’re dressed as the opposite sex, that there will certainly be a tabloid lawsuit in future. For parents with substantial assets, the children may be able to recover a good amount.
Yup, there's a pending tsunami of lawsuits on the horizon, and we should do everything to give it extra momentum. Not just a matter of purging these 'gender affirming' professionals from the medical field, but also bankrupting as many of the cheerleaders as possible.
They give conditions under which an adolescent (ie under 18) can have all these surgeries, including genital ones. Therefore they are recommending them for (some, vaguely defined as you note) kids under 18....
They also claim to use evidence but it's not clear how they did that.
Look, why are we nickle and diming over ages and individual procedures here? We have been pulled into a technical debate and are getting distracted from the ludicrous core premise. Changing sex is not possible. Wanting to change sex or believing it is possible is based on hurt and delusion. Normalizing this as a pathway for children is wrong. Can we not lose the thread?
After 3-4 months of trying to get my head around this issue, I am done entertaining this dark bid for disembodiment. As a progressive and trauma therapist, all I see is trauma breeding trauma and a bunch of tantrums and distraction tactics that take away from having the important, grounded conversations we need to have.
It's time to look this thing in the eyes.
GME--have you or could you email testimony to florida summarizing your professional opinion on this?
Thanks for the nudge, Marcy. I'll put something together tomorrow and send.
I may be reading this through my own biased lens due to our personal experiences, but I feel like the goal of SOC8 is still to justify medically transitioning any parent or teen who wants it and that all the things included in SOC 8 about social contagion, ASD, and mental health are to provide plausible deniability and cover against future lawsuits for themselves and those who claim they are following WPATH standards. I have been unable to find anything in SOC8 that explicitly states, “some children and teens should not receive any form of medical transition” or “gender dysphoria is the wrong diagnosis for so be children and teens” or “it’s possible that in some children and teens that gender dysphoria and a desire to transition is an unhealthy and ineffective coping mechanism that should be avoided.” Without specifically acknowledging these things may be true for some children and teens, all the other recommendations about mental health, ASD, and social contagion seem like they are just providing a box to mindlessly check off and say “yes we thought about this” without REALLY considering other perspectives and treatments.
I know some of the authors and I firmly believe that they want to continue to be able to offer these interventions, which they believe can be safe and effective, and to acknowledge what's going wrong—but that acknowledgment is so enraging to certain factions that they have to downplay it to the point where it doesn't actually impact the recommendations, which makes the inclusion moot.
Thank you so much for this additional insight. I wish something could be done to change this dynamic of enraged individuals and the doctors trying to either appease them or thread an impossible needle. These watered down recommendations satisfy no one and our children are the ultimate losers
This is no way to create medical guidelines--trying to appease enraged individuals.
Why do the people at WPATH think this is the way to do anything?
There are actually standards for when a medical procedure can be recommended, I believe, and it's insane that these incredibly dangerous interventions are being done so indiscriminately, given the inadequate evidence base for benefit and the enormous harm being done to a few, and unknown, untracked harm not being checked for the many.
They believe they are safe and effective but they haven't shown it. That is why we have the scientific method, because people, even very smart, wise, and experienced people, can believe something wrong. They have shown no justification for departing from careful studies with outcomes tracked and a thorough informed consent including disclosing the experimental nature of these interventions and observed adverse outcomes, except that some of the people who have had this treatment are happy with it. They have no idea what has happened to all the people they treated this way.
An airline tells you 10% of the flights arrive fine. You don't know if the rest crashed or what happened. Do you take the airline? Do you consent to your child being sterilized, taking steroids/anti-androgens/estrogen, having genitals and breasts removed or modified?
I feel like if you pull the lens back, we see a bigger problem that needs to be named and pressed head on: there is a foundational belief that gender identity is fundamentally different than everything we know to be true about child and adolescent development, good therapy, good medical practice, good educational practices, and good scientific research. Those promoting this have declared the equivalent of saying their beliefs and actions are exempt from this canon of basic knowledge and functions on its own very different set of rules. It’s like saying “the laws of physics and everything we know about engineering are used for building bridges apply to how we build all bridges, except for that one over there.” You’d have to explain WHY that bridge is so different that the laws of physics don’t apply. That’s not happening with this issue.
I wouldn't trust a thing out of WPATH though. This new set of "guidelines" and their evasions proves it even more. Still, thank you for your enlightening article.
I’m with GME! 100%
Why is there even a question as to “what’s the safest and most effective way”? Such a silly question. It’s a no brainer! Wait until the human brain is done growing and changing. Approx 22-25 years of age. A proven fact of science. All this ridiculous surgery will still never change your biology. When they dig up your bones, scientists will still check off the gender box you were born into. These gender surgeries only create further trauma, medically and psychologically. Let every child grow up and make their own decisions as a mature adult. All this ridiculous controversy is wrong on every medical, ethical and psychological level. To dispute science makes no sense. If a child wants to be the opposite sex, then dress appropriately and go for it! I guarantee that more kids than not, will come full circle and adapt to the sex they were born in. You can change their bodies medically and chemically, but you’ll never change their minds. You’ll only desecrate healthy bodies and create medical catastrophic consequences down the road. But hey, I’m sure every professional will knock down my opinion with all their book smarts. I speak from the school of hard knocks and my heart. Leave these kids bodies alone. Nobody has the right to touch them until they are legally old enough and mature enough. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!
Agreed. There is no question whatsoever what the "safest" treatment for GD is, and Lisa is wrong to say that "we don't know".
Yes, talk therapy works! And when the child has loving parents, it works even better. I'm afraid many of the youngsters who want to "transition" (medically and surgically) may not have the kind of parents they deserve though. The desire to radically alter one's sexual body is a sign of mental illness in my opinion. Our society (US anyway) is now promoting this mental illness in the young. It's despicable.
You might want to head over to Pitt.substack.com -- there are a lot of loving parents in this -- mental illness hits everywhere.
Hi! I agree too. When I was young, it was called "androgyny" for a young person, male or female, to dress how they pleased. I swear there was backlash against that, the same way there has been backlash against the women's movement and LGB rights. When I look at transgender ideology, that's all I see, backlash. Not to mention it's bad enough the way it's harming kids, while making a greedy, sociopathic medical industry lots and lots of money.
For anyone regretting and thinking of suing for medical malpractice: Remember to consider including your parents as defendants. Once a child turns 18 they can sue their parents for “abuse or neglect”.
There are some kids of Hollywood actors who are so very young when they’re dressed as the opposite sex, that there will certainly be a tabloid lawsuit in future. For parents with substantial assets, the children may be able to recover a good amount.
Yup, there's a pending tsunami of lawsuits on the horizon, and we should do everything to give it extra momentum. Not just a matter of purging these 'gender affirming' professionals from the medical field, but also bankrupting as many of the cheerleaders as possible.
Thank you for a great analysis!!!
They give conditions under which an adolescent (ie under 18) can have all these surgeries, including genital ones. Therefore they are recommending them for (some, vaguely defined as you note) kids under 18....
They also claim to use evidence but it's not clear how they did that.