I've been in this "strange bedfellows" place for the past few years, politically speaking. As in, by opening my eyes to the reality of the gender wars, I've found myself nodding along with people who also, as you say, think COVID vaccines cause more harm than COVID itself. But what an interesting point you raise.
I've been in this "strange bedfellows" place for the past few years, politically speaking. As in, by opening my eyes to the reality of the gender wars, I've found myself nodding along with people who also, as you say, think COVID vaccines cause more harm than COVID itself. But what an interesting point you raise.
For myself, I actually have shifted multiple (formerly hyper partisan) opinions. I have noticed that the more I hear cult-like nonsense in blind support of "trans human rights", the more distrusting I am of simplistic narratives, and therefore I am more open to a diversity of viewpoints on other issues, too. COVID is a great example because while I am not an extremist (eg. It's complete nonsense to believe things like "the vaccines contain 5G chips"), I think we also have to acknowledge that vaccine injury is a real phenomenon. And that rolling out an inherently experimental new technology (mRNA vaccine) to an entire population is something worth being wary of, and we should be critical of voices that try to assure us there will be no unexpected long term effects (how could we possibly know at this stage?). And that people truly should have a choice whether to engage with experimental new technology, not be forced (either legally or socially) to accept novel new vaccine technology. I didn't have these beliefs before I realized I was so, so wrong about the trans stuff. It made me think: what else could I be wrong about? What other voices and opinions have I discarded without giving them real consideration?
My two cents on what is probably a side issue but -- there was so much about the vaccines that was just wrong.
I was just talking to someone about it a week ago and one observation I made -- since when do they encourage pregnant women to take ANYTHING, let alone a novel, new vaccine?
Here's a vaccine that is new, with a new method never used before -- and even though pregnant woman cannot ride a roller coaster, drink alcohol, or smoke a cigarette -- we're going to recommend she take this novel vaccine?
To protect against an illness that 99% of people get over without issue?
Thanks, I relate to this very much. Once I stopped outsourcing my views about gender (and for me, views about race at the same time) then everything became worth asking questions about. Vaccine injuries are a great example. It reminded me of the detransitioners, and how shut down their voices have been in the mainstream press. It was destabilizing for quite some time, but now I feel more comfortable, if also much more humble. As you say, what else could I be wrong about? Probably lots. But I'm not into throwing the baby out with the bathwater either and just finding another tribe with mirror opposite beliefs about different evil people. That seems to be one pathway that some disenchanted progressives take. I'm not throwing feminism out, feminism as I understand it anyway. Not becoming a MAGA Republican, though I have become less judgey about them and more curious. It has also felt good to examine, be critical of, but ultimately embrace my own not very conventional life because it's who I am. I'm OK with the freak flag, after all.
Yes! Absolutely. I love what you said about becoming "less judgey, more curious" about MAGA Republicans (and presumably other folks you may have dismissed in the past). It's so easy to fall into the trap of dehumanizing other people.
And it's especially icky when progressives fall into that trap, because there's usually a sanctimonious "well I'm on the side of human rights" justification to their dehumanizing speech. If you believe, for instance, that everyone who voted Trump is literally a vile and brainless monster, then ... what hope do you have for ever functioning in a society with multiple view points? How can you say compassion is a driving value if you believe a majority of your peers are either stupid or evil?
Yes, some people die from vaccines - have a fatal reaction or are chronically impaired, but.....millions more die or are impaired from the lack of being vaccinated. A million plus people in the USA died from Covid. Maybe a few dozen died or were disabled by the vaccine. So it's a toss of the dice: risk dying from covid or risk dying from the vaccine.
I agree with checking your untested beliefs. But I think the answer is to seek more reliable information. With mRNA vaccine as with any medical treatment you have an idea of what the risks could be. With early vaccines the risk was that you were actually introducing the disease to health person. That seemed really dangerous and early on it was. Because people don't have scientific literacy (and because science has become so complex) it's hard to understand why mRNA vaccines are inherently less dangerous than regular vaccines (because they don't introduce the pathogen like regular vaccines do, they just mimic the proteins in the pathogen to trigger the immune response). Which is not to say there isn't any risk but it's possible to make a solid general statement that they are less risky than traditional vaccines. The problem is people don't go beyond their opinions and anxieties to seek info: "something new sounds like a big risk. i don't like it." rather than taking the next step to understand the way the vaccines work. Similarly a position can resonate {"protect the trans kids") and you just accept that gender identity exists and that trans kids are suicidal etc and most folks don't actually check the research literature nor are they able to understand the results in scientific jargon.
Yes, broadly speaking I agree with your point about needing to seek new information.
Not to go too deep into the rabbit hole here, but a lack of education/understanding about what mRNA technology entails is not the only reason to be skeptical of literally cutting edge technology. It's come to light recently that the spike protein itself can be harmful in myriad ways (the spike protein is what the mRNA vaccine produces). If you haven't heard of this before then here is one peer reviewed paper you could read to get a bit of an idea:
... and, colloquially, I've now met several people who have been injured by vaccines, and have encountered many many more suffering from the ill understood mechanisms of long COVID.
I only know so much about this because my husband was rendered functionally disabled due to long COVID, and we've been learning a lot about it (including keeping up on the research). I was extremely pro vaccine, got my two shots in 2020/2021, including while breastfeeding my child, and only now am I realizing there were a lot more problems with the vaccine than we originally anticipated. So to be honest I feel really incensed on this specific issue because I feel lied to (by the CDC, by the scientific community, by ignorant policy makers, etc.) because they were simply not honest (or maybe they were just optimistic / unrealistic) about the potential for totally unknown adverse long term effects...
Not the point of this thread but felt it was worth sharing. Being skeptical of the COVID vaccine, and being critical of coercive politics around vaccine compliance, is NOT only the domain of crazy conspiracy nuts. Anyone who has had to directly live with the consequences is suffering in part due to the mass delusion of the majority. (Much like the people injured by the totally "life saving" practices of gender affirming care.)
I've been in this "strange bedfellows" place for the past few years, politically speaking. As in, by opening my eyes to the reality of the gender wars, I've found myself nodding along with people who also, as you say, think COVID vaccines cause more harm than COVID itself. But what an interesting point you raise.
For myself, I actually have shifted multiple (formerly hyper partisan) opinions. I have noticed that the more I hear cult-like nonsense in blind support of "trans human rights", the more distrusting I am of simplistic narratives, and therefore I am more open to a diversity of viewpoints on other issues, too. COVID is a great example because while I am not an extremist (eg. It's complete nonsense to believe things like "the vaccines contain 5G chips"), I think we also have to acknowledge that vaccine injury is a real phenomenon. And that rolling out an inherently experimental new technology (mRNA vaccine) to an entire population is something worth being wary of, and we should be critical of voices that try to assure us there will be no unexpected long term effects (how could we possibly know at this stage?). And that people truly should have a choice whether to engage with experimental new technology, not be forced (either legally or socially) to accept novel new vaccine technology. I didn't have these beliefs before I realized I was so, so wrong about the trans stuff. It made me think: what else could I be wrong about? What other voices and opinions have I discarded without giving them real consideration?
My two cents on what is probably a side issue but -- there was so much about the vaccines that was just wrong.
I was just talking to someone about it a week ago and one observation I made -- since when do they encourage pregnant women to take ANYTHING, let alone a novel, new vaccine?
Here's a vaccine that is new, with a new method never used before -- and even though pregnant woman cannot ride a roller coaster, drink alcohol, or smoke a cigarette -- we're going to recommend she take this novel vaccine?
To protect against an illness that 99% of people get over without issue?
Makes no sense.
Thanks, I relate to this very much. Once I stopped outsourcing my views about gender (and for me, views about race at the same time) then everything became worth asking questions about. Vaccine injuries are a great example. It reminded me of the detransitioners, and how shut down their voices have been in the mainstream press. It was destabilizing for quite some time, but now I feel more comfortable, if also much more humble. As you say, what else could I be wrong about? Probably lots. But I'm not into throwing the baby out with the bathwater either and just finding another tribe with mirror opposite beliefs about different evil people. That seems to be one pathway that some disenchanted progressives take. I'm not throwing feminism out, feminism as I understand it anyway. Not becoming a MAGA Republican, though I have become less judgey about them and more curious. It has also felt good to examine, be critical of, but ultimately embrace my own not very conventional life because it's who I am. I'm OK with the freak flag, after all.
Yes! Absolutely. I love what you said about becoming "less judgey, more curious" about MAGA Republicans (and presumably other folks you may have dismissed in the past). It's so easy to fall into the trap of dehumanizing other people.
And it's especially icky when progressives fall into that trap, because there's usually a sanctimonious "well I'm on the side of human rights" justification to their dehumanizing speech. If you believe, for instance, that everyone who voted Trump is literally a vile and brainless monster, then ... what hope do you have for ever functioning in a society with multiple view points? How can you say compassion is a driving value if you believe a majority of your peers are either stupid or evil?
Yes, some people die from vaccines - have a fatal reaction or are chronically impaired, but.....millions more die or are impaired from the lack of being vaccinated. A million plus people in the USA died from Covid. Maybe a few dozen died or were disabled by the vaccine. So it's a toss of the dice: risk dying from covid or risk dying from the vaccine.
I agree with checking your untested beliefs. But I think the answer is to seek more reliable information. With mRNA vaccine as with any medical treatment you have an idea of what the risks could be. With early vaccines the risk was that you were actually introducing the disease to health person. That seemed really dangerous and early on it was. Because people don't have scientific literacy (and because science has become so complex) it's hard to understand why mRNA vaccines are inherently less dangerous than regular vaccines (because they don't introduce the pathogen like regular vaccines do, they just mimic the proteins in the pathogen to trigger the immune response). Which is not to say there isn't any risk but it's possible to make a solid general statement that they are less risky than traditional vaccines. The problem is people don't go beyond their opinions and anxieties to seek info: "something new sounds like a big risk. i don't like it." rather than taking the next step to understand the way the vaccines work. Similarly a position can resonate {"protect the trans kids") and you just accept that gender identity exists and that trans kids are suicidal etc and most folks don't actually check the research literature nor are they able to understand the results in scientific jargon.
Yes, broadly speaking I agree with your point about needing to seek new information.
Not to go too deep into the rabbit hole here, but a lack of education/understanding about what mRNA technology entails is not the only reason to be skeptical of literally cutting edge technology. It's come to light recently that the spike protein itself can be harmful in myriad ways (the spike protein is what the mRNA vaccine produces). If you haven't heard of this before then here is one peer reviewed paper you could read to get a bit of an idea:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10452662/
... and, colloquially, I've now met several people who have been injured by vaccines, and have encountered many many more suffering from the ill understood mechanisms of long COVID.
I only know so much about this because my husband was rendered functionally disabled due to long COVID, and we've been learning a lot about it (including keeping up on the research). I was extremely pro vaccine, got my two shots in 2020/2021, including while breastfeeding my child, and only now am I realizing there were a lot more problems with the vaccine than we originally anticipated. So to be honest I feel really incensed on this specific issue because I feel lied to (by the CDC, by the scientific community, by ignorant policy makers, etc.) because they were simply not honest (or maybe they were just optimistic / unrealistic) about the potential for totally unknown adverse long term effects...
Not the point of this thread but felt it was worth sharing. Being skeptical of the COVID vaccine, and being critical of coercive politics around vaccine compliance, is NOT only the domain of crazy conspiracy nuts. Anyone who has had to directly live with the consequences is suffering in part due to the mass delusion of the majority. (Much like the people injured by the totally "life saving" practices of gender affirming care.)
Did your husband get the vaccine before he got covid?
Yes
exactly. when you step out of the stream, you suddenly notice all the things you blindly agreed with.
if the institutions got this so wrong, what else are they butchering?