Great conversation! I’m feeling speechless at Jamie’s description of being deposed by the aclu. They want you to say after 7 hours or so that 3 out of a hundred would be helped. What does that say about medical ethics that so many would be sacrificed/harmed then? I sat with Dr Levine for lunch in Lisbon and he told me essentially the same, that the aclu wants him to say some are helped. As the mother of a teen girl in this it makes me want to go to war! They will lie and hurt my child. Hell hath no fury.
I "liked" on all of your platforms because you're all great! My favorite part was Jamie Reed's discussion of the deposition where it boiled down to 3 kids and what we do with them, and Lisa's response that it is not compassionate to lie to children (and eventually medicalize them to appear the opposite sex).
What we do with children who are uncomfortable in their bodies is try to help them to be comfortable in their bodies and accept them as they are. Up until a few years ago, I think that would have been obvious to everyone. Without a much longer comment, I cannot fully explain my frustration with the idiocy of claiming children are being harmed when we are truthful with them about their sex or don't medically harm them, or that adults are being harmed if they have to use the bathroom of their sex or play sports with same-sex individuals.
I will just end with this. You all touched on many points I have been railing about for years and I thank you for it!
I already follow some of you and know some of your achievements in this field, and think you were all too modest in your video introductions! I watched a bit and am saving the rest for later. But what a great topic. Before the election, I kept thinking, this is an untapped issue that people have strong feelings about but are afraid to express. Trump tapped into that. I did not vote for him, but in my mind, this is a possible silver lining.
What a wonderful conversation with five of my very favorite Substackers-podcasters. Oh, if everyone could read/watch/hear you--that would be a better world.
Re Cory's experience with the clergy: people who have family members who have transed and who have affirmed will likely be the last ones to change their minds according to Helen Joyce. Fascinating that they attacked Cory's authority rather than absorb the facts (typical!).
Re Nancy Mace: This one snapped me. Suddenly I didn't care about edge cases anymore, about being accommodating, about anyone's feelings. Nancy Mace is right. If we can't have social norms that respect women's privacy, then we need laws. I've been arguing with nicer people about it on Substack comments. Never before have I ever thought I'd care about bathrooms but now I see it as a red line that must be held otherwise there's no way to hold the line elsewhere.
No one won. We are in for an unprecedented time of disruption and distress for immigrants for lesbian and gay people, and for women. Trump is transactional, sorry for the pun. He does not care about this issue or about anything else save what will increase his power and wealth. I think this election will set us back, not help crack open the liberals and the left to the contested medicalization of children and youth and to the problems of AGP and fetishism harms to women and girls. The tariffs will make low wage and low wealth people even more desperate and more easily manipulated.
This was a fascinating discussion. I agree with those who have observed that neither side one, and am very worried indeed, more as each day passes, what the future holds on many fronts. That said, I appreciated the depth and breadth of this conversation. (Jamie’s description of the process she goes through on depositions was particularly illuminating.)
I also had meant to include here the comment I put on the LGBT Courage Coalition site, from which I watched the video, but forgot to do it. I sensed there was some reluctance to get into the bathroom issue, but I am really glad you did, as I thought the discussion of toilets was actually a model of how to discuss a fraught issue as it is unfolding in an open, thoughtful way. I appreciated that Ben was open in expressing his concerns about Mace’s approach, which I share. Among other things, I felt putting a target on McBride’s back was not only inappropriate, but also counterproductive to the very valid points that need to be made about single-sex spaces. Thank you, Ben, for making sure that was part of the discussion, and thank you all for your nuanced responses.
Also, Helen Joyce recently noted—and I have observed similar things myself—that she has “seen a group of 8 [loos] in a pub with floor-to-ceiling doors, behind a self-closing fire door. Incredibly dangerous - all a predatory man has to do is hang around looking like he's waiting to use one, and push a woman back in when she comes out of one. Toilets are designed the way they are now for a reason - loads of thought has gone into making them as comfortable and safe as possible. Moreover, single cubicles are totally impractical in places like sports stadiums - take far too much space. Also, urinals are the most hygienic and best way to get lots of men through - cleaners really hate toilet cubicles that men use to pee. And women don't like having to sit on the seats after men have splashed all over them!”
Above all, thanks to you all for all your hard work to right the listing ship.
Great conversation! I’m feeling speechless at Jamie’s description of being deposed by the aclu. They want you to say after 7 hours or so that 3 out of a hundred would be helped. What does that say about medical ethics that so many would be sacrificed/harmed then? I sat with Dr Levine for lunch in Lisbon and he told me essentially the same, that the aclu wants him to say some are helped. As the mother of a teen girl in this it makes me want to go to war! They will lie and hurt my child. Hell hath no fury.
I "liked" on all of your platforms because you're all great! My favorite part was Jamie Reed's discussion of the deposition where it boiled down to 3 kids and what we do with them, and Lisa's response that it is not compassionate to lie to children (and eventually medicalize them to appear the opposite sex).
What we do with children who are uncomfortable in their bodies is try to help them to be comfortable in their bodies and accept them as they are. Up until a few years ago, I think that would have been obvious to everyone. Without a much longer comment, I cannot fully explain my frustration with the idiocy of claiming children are being harmed when we are truthful with them about their sex or don't medically harm them, or that adults are being harmed if they have to use the bathroom of their sex or play sports with same-sex individuals.
I will just end with this. You all touched on many points I have been railing about for years and I thank you for it!
I already follow some of you and know some of your achievements in this field, and think you were all too modest in your video introductions! I watched a bit and am saving the rest for later. But what a great topic. Before the election, I kept thinking, this is an untapped issue that people have strong feelings about but are afraid to express. Trump tapped into that. I did not vote for him, but in my mind, this is a possible silver lining.
What a wonderful conversation with five of my very favorite Substackers-podcasters. Oh, if everyone could read/watch/hear you--that would be a better world.
Re Cory's experience with the clergy: people who have family members who have transed and who have affirmed will likely be the last ones to change their minds according to Helen Joyce. Fascinating that they attacked Cory's authority rather than absorb the facts (typical!).
Re Nancy Mace: This one snapped me. Suddenly I didn't care about edge cases anymore, about being accommodating, about anyone's feelings. Nancy Mace is right. If we can't have social norms that respect women's privacy, then we need laws. I've been arguing with nicer people about it on Substack comments. Never before have I ever thought I'd care about bathrooms but now I see it as a red line that must be held otherwise there's no way to hold the line elsewhere.
No one won. We are in for an unprecedented time of disruption and distress for immigrants for lesbian and gay people, and for women. Trump is transactional, sorry for the pun. He does not care about this issue or about anything else save what will increase his power and wealth. I think this election will set us back, not help crack open the liberals and the left to the contested medicalization of children and youth and to the problems of AGP and fetishism harms to women and girls. The tariffs will make low wage and low wealth people even more desperate and more easily manipulated.
Thanks to all. Helpful. Listened on my morning walk in preparation for holiday family visits.
This was a fascinating discussion. I agree with those who have observed that neither side one, and am very worried indeed, more as each day passes, what the future holds on many fronts. That said, I appreciated the depth and breadth of this conversation. (Jamie’s description of the process she goes through on depositions was particularly illuminating.)
I also had meant to include here the comment I put on the LGBT Courage Coalition site, from which I watched the video, but forgot to do it. I sensed there was some reluctance to get into the bathroom issue, but I am really glad you did, as I thought the discussion of toilets was actually a model of how to discuss a fraught issue as it is unfolding in an open, thoughtful way. I appreciated that Ben was open in expressing his concerns about Mace’s approach, which I share. Among other things, I felt putting a target on McBride’s back was not only inappropriate, but also counterproductive to the very valid points that need to be made about single-sex spaces. Thank you, Ben, for making sure that was part of the discussion, and thank you all for your nuanced responses.
Eliza mentioned the Sex Matters materials on this issue, which are indeed very good Here’s a link to a pamphlet they did on the issue: https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Toilets-matter.pdf
Also, Helen Joyce recently noted—and I have observed similar things myself—that she has “seen a group of 8 [loos] in a pub with floor-to-ceiling doors, behind a self-closing fire door. Incredibly dangerous - all a predatory man has to do is hang around looking like he's waiting to use one, and push a woman back in when she comes out of one. Toilets are designed the way they are now for a reason - loads of thought has gone into making them as comfortable and safe as possible. Moreover, single cubicles are totally impractical in places like sports stadiums - take far too much space. Also, urinals are the most hygienic and best way to get lots of men through - cleaners really hate toilet cubicles that men use to pee. And women don't like having to sit on the seats after men have splashed all over them!”
Above all, thanks to you all for all your hard work to right the listing ship.