I'm going to give an answer that may not go over well, but I feel strongly it's the only way to make progress:
Background: I am a politically homeless former Democrat and progressive. I am surrounded by politically active, very liberal friends, family, and coworkers.
I believe the only way we can get enough Democrats to hear us and support policies that will actually protect children, women, and vulnerable people is to give them a way out where they can completely save face, don't have to admit they were wrong, and can feel like they are still opposing Republicans.
I don't believe there is any carefully worded presentation of the facts that will convince them. There may be a few people who can be reached by hitting the right nerve with the right talking point (sports, prisons, detransitioners, free speech, CPS stories) but I have seen too many Democrats find ways to work around things they will acknowledge are true and problematic and still not make any shift in beliefs because they believe doing so aligns them with cruel Republicans and they are NOT going to side with them on ANYTHING. And now that Trump has started talking about this issue, Democrats will dig in even more and skeptics and fence-sitters will equate changing their mind with supporting Trump. Another unpopular opinion: I think a Biden second term will give questioning Democrats and mainstream media the breathing room to shift their thinking. I fear a second Trump term will cause us to lose ground. (I'm fully open to being wrong on this).
I don't know enough (anything) about this new group or even what Lisa means about concerns over their tone. But I don't think they're going get anywhere with Democrats by doing more of the same that hasn't worked by saying the message is coming from Democrats (who will be dismissed as traitors). We've got to give them the face-saving way out that still lets them claim the moral high ground. Is that unfair and insulting to those of us hurt by this movement? Absolutely. But my feelings don't matter. I care only about stopping this.
The politicians will need an off ramp, but the clinicians need to be made to change. The professional bodies are not fit for purpose. Medics might need some talk therapy to handle not actually being as kind as they thought they were.
I was coming in to say something similar. This new group needs to stay far far away from anything that can paint them as being “right wing” or “Republican shills” or whatever. Maybe if someone says “but that’s what those nasty Rs think” the response can be something like “even a broken clock is right twice a day.”
Well, as many of us progressives in this fight know, it doesn't matter how careful you are: if you are questioning gender ideology at all you are in bed with the Proud Boys. The broken clock metaphor might work for some people I guess, but it seems insulting and unfair too. Maybe the Republicans are just right about this issue because they are...RIGHT. I came into this through radical feminism, so not from the right, but I agree with my conservative friends entirely on the reasons why this is bad. Why is that so hard for Democrats to admit? I get what people are saying about giving an off ramp so Democrats can save face. Maybe that is necessary. But at the same time, wouldn't it be refreshing if some Democrats simply said, "yeah, wow, was I wrong. I'm sorry. Let's move forward and try to get this right."
Agree with you directionally , but certainly not so far as to imagine any good would come from a second Biden term given his obvious cognitive decline. IMHO whoever would be pulling the poet strings in that case would more likely to be a really far left liberal rather than just an opportunist politicians like Biden.
The key point that must be recognized is how strong a factor cognitive dissonance is in influencing the belief systems of most individuals, particularly on a subject as charged with emotion and sense of good vs. evil, right vs. wrong as the trans issue. Just as in the case of a smoker who quits then often becoming one of the most vocal messengers concerning the dangers of smoking, so it is likely than any current defenders of the trans indoctrination of minors who recognize the deep problems with that viewpoint will then become leaders in the effort to move the attempt to focus attention on the harm of the trans crusade. Cognitive dissonance experiments have shown that the more major the change, not only does the view to which you have converted become much higher up in your hierarchy of beliefs, but also at rye same time your previous belief usually becomes very much abhorred. E.g, how could I ever have been a smoker! How could I ever have been an atheist? Why it it take me so long to understand how superior Apple OS is to Microsoft Windows? Pleas don’t attempt to debate me, those are just easily understood examples to buttress my point for those who have never had a conversion experience. 🙂🙂🙂
I understand your position and bullying isn't needed at all, but politicians sincerely don't need off ramps except for negotiations. In this scenario women's, children's, parents fundamental rights are what would be on the table & reestablished or lost. Women's rights were very difficult to obtain. I'm not aware of any systemic discrimination directed at the gender movement at all. Debating serious changes done without public input and evidence should never be hate speech or silenced. Am on the sidelines, and have been canceled on sites for the ridiculous JKR flap, and our once strong liberal papers have often stretched their ethical boundaries too far. Maybe dems need to understand and hear from constitutes how they also reflect an extreme direction and its not wanted now or in the future.
I believe in the big tent, but this space is for people who want to make things better. This rhetoric isn't helpful to anyone, so I'm gonna do what I almost never do and mute you.
You are free to believe all of that and to think I have extraordinarily ignorant beliefs. I wish you well in using your methods and language to change minds and policies in a way that gets meaningful and measurable results.
Yup. And do you know WHY I am free to believe these unquestionable facts? Because progs have yet to succeed in destroying everyone’s mind, the First Amendment, and critical thinking among adults.
The most enlightening part of your response is your avoidance of refutation of the facts I listed.
Why? They’re in my initial post. Education has been owned by Ds since FDR; if Ds WANTED better education, we’d HAVE better education. Simple as that. As to the worst economic opportunities, inner cities. Worst schools? Inner cities. Most crime? Inner cities. And inner cities are OWNED by Ds. Where are women & children most at-risk of violent crime? D metros. Where are thousands of middle class jobs - family-supporting jobs - going missing as retail stores close down due to D policies? D metros.
If you can illustrate a single D policy that supports kids or families, I’m all ears.
I would like to see DIAG embrace/partner with SEGM. (Society for Evidence based Gender Medicine). In my conversations with fellow democrats, people become convinced when I combine my personal story of my teen with the white papers and stats I have collected. People (those 40 and older anyway) have a sense that something is terribly wrong with where gender has gone, but they need information presented in a compassionate way for their formal stance to be altered. SEGM does a good job of this. And people’s positions are definitely changeable- I’ve seen it happen many, many times.
I agree! I really respect the tone of SEGM and I think that stance along with traditional Democratic values is where I am. I will never be a Republican and I would support a group that is seen as trying to change the Democrats from the inside. Basically, “this part has to change because it’s wrong and embarrassing. If we truly are trying to be on the right side of history, we can’t double down on a mistake.”
Lisa, you are among the best at exposing the dangers of transgenderism to society’s most vulnerable members. You’ve set the narrative to attract persuadables. We just need more evidence — not just anecdotes but survey data — about who the victims are. As you continuously note, they are among the most vulnerable members of society - gender non-conforming children who should be encouraged to love themselves just the way they are, and children on the autism spectrum who need help to become comfortable in their own skin.
We need more evidence to expose the agenda to “trans gays,” essentially erasing them. If the L’s, G’s and B’s in the LGBTQ rainbow only knew! If only the autistic community knew! If only more democrats knew that the very people they want to protect are being devastated!
So what percent of trans patients are gay kids, and what percent are on the autism spectrum? Knowing this data would help make the case that the transgender industry are the ultimate “oppressors.”
The Democrats have lost my trust on this issue and others. I think there is truth to "Trump Derangement Syndrome" as described by conservatives. I've learned a lot from conservatives since being in this fight, and my beliefs and politics and stance in the world have shifted in some deep ways. Some of that has been really cool and felt liberating. I love that Lisa says we should all be asking ourselves continually: "what if I'm wrong??" I agree. Continually. None of us knows everything. We're just not that smart or that wise. Although I have never voted for anyone but a Democrat for president in the past, if there was an "old school" Republican on the ticket who I thought would do a good job overall and who agreed with me about the harms of gender ideology, there's a good chance I'd vote for him or her at this point.
However, looking at history and the clear evidence myself of what he has actually SAID and what has actually HAPPENED, I do not believe the Dems are exaggerating about the threat to our democracy and the rule of law resulting from a second Trump presidency. MSNBC has not convinced me of this, NPR has not convinced me of this, but the simple facts have. At this point, it's not actually "Trump Derangement Syndrome." The stakes are very high. I fear they've cried wolf too many times, and that people like me no longer believe them about anything. I understand--I feel betrayed too. I will not give them money. I will not campaign for them. But as horrified, sad, alienated, and angry as I feel about my former "people" being so blind on the issue of gender and supporting policies that harm women and children, it is worse to lose our democracy. It just is. Democracies are hard, if not impossible, to get back once they are lost. This is not a game. Aspects of our democracy are already compromised, and we should work to strengthen it, messy as it is. I will not vote for Donald Trump, even though I don't like Joe Biden's policies on this and some other issues.
I do believe there is a place for this organization, and I wish them the best. I also urge DIAG to consult with Lisa about the tone issue, as she is one of the few who has understood the importance of communicating EFFECTIVELY with this subculture in our country. Democrats are not going away--just like Republican aren't going away. The worst harm of gender ideology, the medical scandal with kids, will not cease until enough Democrats are persuaded. Even if you hate everything the Democrats stand for, you should support them coming to their senses, so more children are not hurt.
This is probably way too simplistic, but I think we can't get out from under this without more lawsuits on the medical side (as well as changes to insurance coverage), and on the social side, it may need to simply fall out of fashion. I realize that's not an expedient approach and I do not mean to trivialize transgenderism by calling it 'fashionable', but for a large majority of ROGD kids- the cohort creating the waitlists at gender clinics- it is absolutely on-trend. Maybe celebrities can help, but that strikes me as something only someone over 40 would think of. These kids are counter-culture, their idols are You-Tubers, or even just 'regular people' telling their stories online. I think Eliza Mondigreen's work should be consulted to understand how the trans subcultures (plural) work. This whole thing was born on the internet and will need to die there too. Clearly, we must stay the course with facts, but it's a sign of our times that facts alone won't get the job done.
Dang, Lisa! What a shame you didn't get to speak last night. I listened in to most of the DIAG launch party. I learned about the group this past December--consider me a joiner of the group.
There were some technical difficulties last night.
It will be difficult for many Democrats to take an off-ramp. What will it take?
There are immersed in the activists from the authentic medicalized self side.
As Helen Joyce has noted, the parents who transed their kids, or went along with it (if the child was older), they are a force to be reckoned with. They will never stop insisting that their child is happier, living their best life, etc. And of course there is a huge medical lobbying group.
There are people out there happy with their transitions. And there are people who may have regrets--but will never admit it publicly.
We need to make room in society for people who are naturally GNC, and for those who have gone the medical route. This doesn't mean giving up private spaces for women and girls--or allowing men to compete on women's teams. We need more neutral third places.
And sorry (actually not sorry), to all who completed a medical transition that are happy, I make room for you. But I also think you could have lead a perfectly happy life in your own unaltered body.
I don’t know if the politicians will ever “fix” this. I still think the only way that this turns around is when the customers stop showing up. When parents stop bringing their kids to gender clinics, the clinics will close, the money flow will dry up, the resources will stop being pushed into schools. When it becomes popular to live the body you were born in, this will stop. Sadly, that doesn’t seem like an expedient plan. We need the gender version of RAD -- Rock Against Drugs! Rock stars on MTV telling me not to do drugs was much more impactful than the government’s “war on drugs”!
I completely agree this is not going to be ended through politics or state bans. I worry state bans will cause kids in those states to lock onto the idea of medicalizing the moment they turn 18 as a way to prove their sincerity and give the middle finger to everyone who made them wait. What's going to change this is a change in personal beliefs, which will be hard (see my comment above) and behind the scenes policy changes that involve insurance companies.
Everyone wants to compare this issue to lobotomies. They need to look at the recovered memory scandals of the 80s and 90s. Despite there being no support for repressed/recovered memories and professional org statements renouncing the idea, 70% of clinical psychologists believe they're a real thing and the wildly popular The Body Keeps the Score is full of repressed memory pseudoscience. It was a few lawsuits and changes in insurance reimbursement that put out the fires of the scandal then and keep guardrails up around it now, even with large percentages of professionals and the public still believing all the misinformation about it.
We could perhaps compare it to Medicare fraud. The excessive tests and drugs that gets prescribed by unscrupulous doctors because an insurance company somewhere will cover it. I think we all know about the sketchy surgeons, but can we be outraged that they have found a way to milk the system with off-label drugs? Find a really rich amoral surgeon or endocrinologust and publically shame them. Then question why we all have to pay for it. Sometimes tabloid scandal hits the spot!
As a former Democrat supporter, it saddens me that Obamacare funding possibly contributing contagion. Financial support has come to help normalize the concepts. I'd love to seen that gone.
I definitely think people have no idea that children are actually being separated from one or both parents because of this. The hubrous, cowardice, ignorance/unwillingness to know the subject matter, (whatever it is) on the part of those people is infuriating. I'm sure there are some people who genuinely believe they are doing the right thing but there are also those self-righteous, condescending, ambitious people (likely in charge) "saving" kids. The evidence is robust that an unstable childhood has perhaps the most detrimental effects, more so than socioeconomic status for boys in particular. That people feel this constitutes a situation where the state is better able to raise a child than their parents is ridiculous. It's like agreeing with a child that a divorce will be fun because they'll get two Christmases (or whatever gift giving holiday). It will be interesting to see how these children prosper or not in adult relationships as they are being encouraged to manipulate, and coerce, and at worst are identifying the "caring" adults (chosen family etc.) using all the wrong parameters.
Lisa, One area in which DIAG may want to focus is providing a platform in which people on very different sides of the gender ideology issue are able to come together. The non-profit, Braver Angels, that brings Democrats and Republicans together on very divisive issues, provides a prototype. One speaker presents their stance on a controversial issue, and their ideological opponent across the aisle is then tasked with summarizing...NOT critiquing...their stance. Then the summarizer presents their stance on the same issue, and an ideological opponent is tasked with summarizing THEIR position. And, so it goes. People aren't necessarily there to debate, convince their ideological opponents that their positions are wrong, but to learn to listen, hold space, and to come to understand that they can respect...even like an ideological opponent...even if they disagree on important issues.
The ability to listen, to assume good faith in our ideological opponents is what we have lost. We need to do the hard work of bringing that back.
I honestly think it’s just a matter of time before everyone (not literally everyone but the vast majority) will realize that this medical experimentation on young vulnerable people is ridiculous and harmful. They will also realize the idea of “wrong body” is absurd and harmful. But that time could be 1 year or 10 or 20. I want it to be 1!!
I have considered whether I am wrong about this - daily for almost 5 years - and I have yet to find that any of this makes sense. It does not, and that will become apparent just as we no longer think slavery is good, or that black people belong on the back of the bus, or that women should not breastfeed (or vote).
The big question is how to wake everyone (mainly Dems, but also some Republicans) up from this foggy non-sensical group-think. Hopefully this new organization is working on just that.
Lisa, your husband is echoing what I learned years ago in Journalism classes. If both sides of an issue are telling you that you are biased, you might be close to balanced and are doing something right. Keep it up!
Pointing out Diane Ehrensaft, who gives doctors continuing "education" on "affirmative care" happens to be a kook who pitched recovered memories of satanic abuse at the Presidio back in the day, and now talks about "gender angels" might help.
It's a hell of a thing to admit when you're wrong about something like this.
Re: Diane Ehrensaft, does anyone have access to her article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1580341/ I have tried searching for solid evidence of her involvement and have come up empty. I did read a couple of LAT and NYT articles about the scandal that led to the closure of the facility but have not seen anything connecting it to recovered memories.
The “Off Ramp” for anyone supporting “gender affirming” drugs or surgery ought to be hemp & a lamppost.
Blocking puberty stops the normal brain re-wiring that begins with puberty, and stops the activation of the majority of sweat glands that remove toxins from our bodies, which also is kicked-off by puberty. Blocking puberty only means undeveloped brains and more sickness / increased healthcare costs. IOW, more sick Progressives voting against Western Civilization.
to the vast majority of those with all political preferences. I would forcefully and consistently distinguish between locations and sources of censorship. Censorship by partisans in public venues, stores and libraries BAD. Censorship by parents in schools and school libraries GOOD. I love the phrase "parent-curated".
"Believe me, I do get it. I keep thinking that if everyone in my cohort knew what I knew, that they’d likely come to a different conclusion. But maybe I’m wrong?"
I've come to believe that the facts will not be enough. Polarization has given rise to the vividly imagined moral failings of the other. The quest for moral superiority gives each side a self-conferred status that both are loathe to part with.
I was on local boards, committees, and elected office for about 14 yrs in Central Fl. One major long-term issue basically pitted community standards -vs- a blighted commercial area which was anchored by a wealthy politically connected & layered, adult industry. Different scenario with the gender movement, but many similar directions & tactics. Democrats, my party, have very effectively & efficiently pushed this movement while clearly understanding their priorities. A stealth operation on basically any female member who doesn't conform & follow unconditionally. Many trusted the party and forgave what looked like complacency. Principles must matter, and plans or thoughts are only good if effectively & efficiently executed. It is beyond time to firmly politically push back. Facts matter to most especially if their is clarity & a passion.
I'm going to give an answer that may not go over well, but I feel strongly it's the only way to make progress:
Background: I am a politically homeless former Democrat and progressive. I am surrounded by politically active, very liberal friends, family, and coworkers.
I believe the only way we can get enough Democrats to hear us and support policies that will actually protect children, women, and vulnerable people is to give them a way out where they can completely save face, don't have to admit they were wrong, and can feel like they are still opposing Republicans.
I don't believe there is any carefully worded presentation of the facts that will convince them. There may be a few people who can be reached by hitting the right nerve with the right talking point (sports, prisons, detransitioners, free speech, CPS stories) but I have seen too many Democrats find ways to work around things they will acknowledge are true and problematic and still not make any shift in beliefs because they believe doing so aligns them with cruel Republicans and they are NOT going to side with them on ANYTHING. And now that Trump has started talking about this issue, Democrats will dig in even more and skeptics and fence-sitters will equate changing their mind with supporting Trump. Another unpopular opinion: I think a Biden second term will give questioning Democrats and mainstream media the breathing room to shift their thinking. I fear a second Trump term will cause us to lose ground. (I'm fully open to being wrong on this).
I don't know enough (anything) about this new group or even what Lisa means about concerns over their tone. But I don't think they're going get anywhere with Democrats by doing more of the same that hasn't worked by saying the message is coming from Democrats (who will be dismissed as traitors). We've got to give them the face-saving way out that still lets them claim the moral high ground. Is that unfair and insulting to those of us hurt by this movement? Absolutely. But my feelings don't matter. I care only about stopping this.
The politicians will need an off ramp, but the clinicians need to be made to change. The professional bodies are not fit for purpose. Medics might need some talk therapy to handle not actually being as kind as they thought they were.
Yes! Completely agree about clinicians. They must change.
I was coming in to say something similar. This new group needs to stay far far away from anything that can paint them as being “right wing” or “Republican shills” or whatever. Maybe if someone says “but that’s what those nasty Rs think” the response can be something like “even a broken clock is right twice a day.”
Well, as many of us progressives in this fight know, it doesn't matter how careful you are: if you are questioning gender ideology at all you are in bed with the Proud Boys. The broken clock metaphor might work for some people I guess, but it seems insulting and unfair too. Maybe the Republicans are just right about this issue because they are...RIGHT. I came into this through radical feminism, so not from the right, but I agree with my conservative friends entirely on the reasons why this is bad. Why is that so hard for Democrats to admit? I get what people are saying about giving an off ramp so Democrats can save face. Maybe that is necessary. But at the same time, wouldn't it be refreshing if some Democrats simply said, "yeah, wow, was I wrong. I'm sorry. Let's move forward and try to get this right."
All fair points. It’s a tough challenge, with everything so polarized.
For sure.
Agree with you directionally , but certainly not so far as to imagine any good would come from a second Biden term given his obvious cognitive decline. IMHO whoever would be pulling the poet strings in that case would more likely to be a really far left liberal rather than just an opportunist politicians like Biden.
The key point that must be recognized is how strong a factor cognitive dissonance is in influencing the belief systems of most individuals, particularly on a subject as charged with emotion and sense of good vs. evil, right vs. wrong as the trans issue. Just as in the case of a smoker who quits then often becoming one of the most vocal messengers concerning the dangers of smoking, so it is likely than any current defenders of the trans indoctrination of minors who recognize the deep problems with that viewpoint will then become leaders in the effort to move the attempt to focus attention on the harm of the trans crusade. Cognitive dissonance experiments have shown that the more major the change, not only does the view to which you have converted become much higher up in your hierarchy of beliefs, but also at rye same time your previous belief usually becomes very much abhorred. E.g, how could I ever have been a smoker! How could I ever have been an atheist? Why it it take me so long to understand how superior Apple OS is to Microsoft Windows? Pleas don’t attempt to debate me, those are just easily understood examples to buttress my point for those who have never had a conversion experience. 🙂🙂🙂
So what about the Palestinians? The fact that calls for freedom for any people are interpreted as an attack shows how morally broken those people are.
They have a section on development ways to talk to people on their web pages. Maybe you want to add suggestions there!
I understand your position and bullying isn't needed at all, but politicians sincerely don't need off ramps except for negotiations. In this scenario women's, children's, parents fundamental rights are what would be on the table & reestablished or lost. Women's rights were very difficult to obtain. I'm not aware of any systemic discrimination directed at the gender movement at all. Debating serious changes done without public input and evidence should never be hate speech or silenced. Am on the sidelines, and have been canceled on sites for the ridiculous JKR flap, and our once strong liberal papers have often stretched their ethical boundaries too far. Maybe dems need to understand and hear from constitutes how they also reflect an extreme direction and its not wanted now or in the future.
I believe in the big tent, but this space is for people who want to make things better. This rhetoric isn't helpful to anyone, so I'm gonna do what I almost never do and mute you.
You are free to believe all of that and to think I have extraordinarily ignorant beliefs. I wish you well in using your methods and language to change minds and policies in a way that gets meaningful and measurable results.
Yup. And do you know WHY I am free to believe these unquestionable facts? Because progs have yet to succeed in destroying everyone’s mind, the First Amendment, and critical thinking among adults.
The most enlightening part of your response is your avoidance of refutation of the facts I listed.
Yet you failed to provide any facts in your response either... interesting...
Why? They’re in my initial post. Education has been owned by Ds since FDR; if Ds WANTED better education, we’d HAVE better education. Simple as that. As to the worst economic opportunities, inner cities. Worst schools? Inner cities. Most crime? Inner cities. And inner cities are OWNED by Ds. Where are women & children most at-risk of violent crime? D metros. Where are thousands of middle class jobs - family-supporting jobs - going missing as retail stores close down due to D policies? D metros.
If you can illustrate a single D policy that supports kids or families, I’m all ears.
You've evidently not heard that "correlatipn is not causation".
I would like to see DIAG embrace/partner with SEGM. (Society for Evidence based Gender Medicine). In my conversations with fellow democrats, people become convinced when I combine my personal story of my teen with the white papers and stats I have collected. People (those 40 and older anyway) have a sense that something is terribly wrong with where gender has gone, but they need information presented in a compassionate way for their formal stance to be altered. SEGM does a good job of this. And people’s positions are definitely changeable- I’ve seen it happen many, many times.
I agree! I really respect the tone of SEGM and I think that stance along with traditional Democratic values is where I am. I will never be a Republican and I would support a group that is seen as trying to change the Democrats from the inside. Basically, “this part has to change because it’s wrong and embarrassing. If we truly are trying to be on the right side of history, we can’t double down on a mistake.”
Lisa, you are among the best at exposing the dangers of transgenderism to society’s most vulnerable members. You’ve set the narrative to attract persuadables. We just need more evidence — not just anecdotes but survey data — about who the victims are. As you continuously note, they are among the most vulnerable members of society - gender non-conforming children who should be encouraged to love themselves just the way they are, and children on the autism spectrum who need help to become comfortable in their own skin.
We need more evidence to expose the agenda to “trans gays,” essentially erasing them. If the L’s, G’s and B’s in the LGBTQ rainbow only knew! If only the autistic community knew! If only more democrats knew that the very people they want to protect are being devastated!
So what percent of trans patients are gay kids, and what percent are on the autism spectrum? Knowing this data would help make the case that the transgender industry are the ultimate “oppressors.”
Keep up the great work!
The Democrats have lost my trust on this issue and others. I think there is truth to "Trump Derangement Syndrome" as described by conservatives. I've learned a lot from conservatives since being in this fight, and my beliefs and politics and stance in the world have shifted in some deep ways. Some of that has been really cool and felt liberating. I love that Lisa says we should all be asking ourselves continually: "what if I'm wrong??" I agree. Continually. None of us knows everything. We're just not that smart or that wise. Although I have never voted for anyone but a Democrat for president in the past, if there was an "old school" Republican on the ticket who I thought would do a good job overall and who agreed with me about the harms of gender ideology, there's a good chance I'd vote for him or her at this point.
However, looking at history and the clear evidence myself of what he has actually SAID and what has actually HAPPENED, I do not believe the Dems are exaggerating about the threat to our democracy and the rule of law resulting from a second Trump presidency. MSNBC has not convinced me of this, NPR has not convinced me of this, but the simple facts have. At this point, it's not actually "Trump Derangement Syndrome." The stakes are very high. I fear they've cried wolf too many times, and that people like me no longer believe them about anything. I understand--I feel betrayed too. I will not give them money. I will not campaign for them. But as horrified, sad, alienated, and angry as I feel about my former "people" being so blind on the issue of gender and supporting policies that harm women and children, it is worse to lose our democracy. It just is. Democracies are hard, if not impossible, to get back once they are lost. This is not a game. Aspects of our democracy are already compromised, and we should work to strengthen it, messy as it is. I will not vote for Donald Trump, even though I don't like Joe Biden's policies on this and some other issues.
I do believe there is a place for this organization, and I wish them the best. I also urge DIAG to consult with Lisa about the tone issue, as she is one of the few who has understood the importance of communicating EFFECTIVELY with this subculture in our country. Democrats are not going away--just like Republican aren't going away. The worst harm of gender ideology, the medical scandal with kids, will not cease until enough Democrats are persuaded. Even if you hate everything the Democrats stand for, you should support them coming to their senses, so more children are not hurt.
I agree completely. Well said.
This is probably way too simplistic, but I think we can't get out from under this without more lawsuits on the medical side (as well as changes to insurance coverage), and on the social side, it may need to simply fall out of fashion. I realize that's not an expedient approach and I do not mean to trivialize transgenderism by calling it 'fashionable', but for a large majority of ROGD kids- the cohort creating the waitlists at gender clinics- it is absolutely on-trend. Maybe celebrities can help, but that strikes me as something only someone over 40 would think of. These kids are counter-culture, their idols are You-Tubers, or even just 'regular people' telling their stories online. I think Eliza Mondigreen's work should be consulted to understand how the trans subcultures (plural) work. This whole thing was born on the internet and will need to die there too. Clearly, we must stay the course with facts, but it's a sign of our times that facts alone won't get the job done.
Dang, Lisa! What a shame you didn't get to speak last night. I listened in to most of the DIAG launch party. I learned about the group this past December--consider me a joiner of the group.
There were some technical difficulties last night.
It will be difficult for many Democrats to take an off-ramp. What will it take?
There are immersed in the activists from the authentic medicalized self side.
As Helen Joyce has noted, the parents who transed their kids, or went along with it (if the child was older), they are a force to be reckoned with. They will never stop insisting that their child is happier, living their best life, etc. And of course there is a huge medical lobbying group.
There are people out there happy with their transitions. And there are people who may have regrets--but will never admit it publicly.
We need to make room in society for people who are naturally GNC, and for those who have gone the medical route. This doesn't mean giving up private spaces for women and girls--or allowing men to compete on women's teams. We need more neutral third places.
And sorry (actually not sorry), to all who completed a medical transition that are happy, I make room for you. But I also think you could have lead a perfectly happy life in your own unaltered body.
I don’t know if the politicians will ever “fix” this. I still think the only way that this turns around is when the customers stop showing up. When parents stop bringing their kids to gender clinics, the clinics will close, the money flow will dry up, the resources will stop being pushed into schools. When it becomes popular to live the body you were born in, this will stop. Sadly, that doesn’t seem like an expedient plan. We need the gender version of RAD -- Rock Against Drugs! Rock stars on MTV telling me not to do drugs was much more impactful than the government’s “war on drugs”!
I completely agree this is not going to be ended through politics or state bans. I worry state bans will cause kids in those states to lock onto the idea of medicalizing the moment they turn 18 as a way to prove their sincerity and give the middle finger to everyone who made them wait. What's going to change this is a change in personal beliefs, which will be hard (see my comment above) and behind the scenes policy changes that involve insurance companies.
Everyone wants to compare this issue to lobotomies. They need to look at the recovered memory scandals of the 80s and 90s. Despite there being no support for repressed/recovered memories and professional org statements renouncing the idea, 70% of clinical psychologists believe they're a real thing and the wildly popular The Body Keeps the Score is full of repressed memory pseudoscience. It was a few lawsuits and changes in insurance reimbursement that put out the fires of the scandal then and keep guardrails up around it now, even with large percentages of professionals and the public still believing all the misinformation about it.
We could perhaps compare it to Medicare fraud. The excessive tests and drugs that gets prescribed by unscrupulous doctors because an insurance company somewhere will cover it. I think we all know about the sketchy surgeons, but can we be outraged that they have found a way to milk the system with off-label drugs? Find a really rich amoral surgeon or endocrinologust and publically shame them. Then question why we all have to pay for it. Sometimes tabloid scandal hits the spot!
I agree that the customers may stop showing up when insurers refuse to pay for GAC. The detrans lawsuits should give insurers pause.
This is extreme body modification. It should be coded as cosmetic--and it should be difficult to obtain.
As a former Democrat supporter, it saddens me that Obamacare funding possibly contributing contagion. Financial support has come to help normalize the concepts. I'd love to seen that gone.
I definitely think people have no idea that children are actually being separated from one or both parents because of this. The hubrous, cowardice, ignorance/unwillingness to know the subject matter, (whatever it is) on the part of those people is infuriating. I'm sure there are some people who genuinely believe they are doing the right thing but there are also those self-righteous, condescending, ambitious people (likely in charge) "saving" kids. The evidence is robust that an unstable childhood has perhaps the most detrimental effects, more so than socioeconomic status for boys in particular. That people feel this constitutes a situation where the state is better able to raise a child than their parents is ridiculous. It's like agreeing with a child that a divorce will be fun because they'll get two Christmases (or whatever gift giving holiday). It will be interesting to see how these children prosper or not in adult relationships as they are being encouraged to manipulate, and coerce, and at worst are identifying the "caring" adults (chosen family etc.) using all the wrong parameters.
Lisa, One area in which DIAG may want to focus is providing a platform in which people on very different sides of the gender ideology issue are able to come together. The non-profit, Braver Angels, that brings Democrats and Republicans together on very divisive issues, provides a prototype. One speaker presents their stance on a controversial issue, and their ideological opponent across the aisle is then tasked with summarizing...NOT critiquing...their stance. Then the summarizer presents their stance on the same issue, and an ideological opponent is tasked with summarizing THEIR position. And, so it goes. People aren't necessarily there to debate, convince their ideological opponents that their positions are wrong, but to learn to listen, hold space, and to come to understand that they can respect...even like an ideological opponent...even if they disagree on important issues.
The ability to listen, to assume good faith in our ideological opponents is what we have lost. We need to do the hard work of bringing that back.
I really like this idea
I honestly think it’s just a matter of time before everyone (not literally everyone but the vast majority) will realize that this medical experimentation on young vulnerable people is ridiculous and harmful. They will also realize the idea of “wrong body” is absurd and harmful. But that time could be 1 year or 10 or 20. I want it to be 1!!
I have considered whether I am wrong about this - daily for almost 5 years - and I have yet to find that any of this makes sense. It does not, and that will become apparent just as we no longer think slavery is good, or that black people belong on the back of the bus, or that women should not breastfeed (or vote).
The big question is how to wake everyone (mainly Dems, but also some Republicans) up from this foggy non-sensical group-think. Hopefully this new organization is working on just that.
Lisa, your husband is echoing what I learned years ago in Journalism classes. If both sides of an issue are telling you that you are biased, you might be close to balanced and are doing something right. Keep it up!
Pointing out Diane Ehrensaft, who gives doctors continuing "education" on "affirmative care" happens to be a kook who pitched recovered memories of satanic abuse at the Presidio back in the day, and now talks about "gender angels" might help.
It's a hell of a thing to admit when you're wrong about something like this.
Re: Diane Ehrensaft, does anyone have access to her article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1580341/ I have tried searching for solid evidence of her involvement and have come up empty. I did read a couple of LAT and NYT articles about the scandal that led to the closure of the facility but have not seen anything connecting it to recovered memories.
The “Off Ramp” for anyone supporting “gender affirming” drugs or surgery ought to be hemp & a lamppost.
Blocking puberty stops the normal brain re-wiring that begins with puberty, and stops the activation of the majority of sweat glands that remove toxins from our bodies, which also is kicked-off by puberty. Blocking puberty only means undeveloped brains and more sickness / increased healthcare costs. IOW, more sick Progressives voting against Western Civilization.
Censorshio is abhorrent
to the vast majority of those with all political preferences. I would forcefully and consistently distinguish between locations and sources of censorship. Censorship by partisans in public venues, stores and libraries BAD. Censorship by parents in schools and school libraries GOOD. I love the phrase "parent-curated".
"Believe me, I do get it. I keep thinking that if everyone in my cohort knew what I knew, that they’d likely come to a different conclusion. But maybe I’m wrong?"
I've come to believe that the facts will not be enough. Polarization has given rise to the vividly imagined moral failings of the other. The quest for moral superiority gives each side a self-conferred status that both are loathe to part with.
I was on local boards, committees, and elected office for about 14 yrs in Central Fl. One major long-term issue basically pitted community standards -vs- a blighted commercial area which was anchored by a wealthy politically connected & layered, adult industry. Different scenario with the gender movement, but many similar directions & tactics. Democrats, my party, have very effectively & efficiently pushed this movement while clearly understanding their priorities. A stealth operation on basically any female member who doesn't conform & follow unconditionally. Many trusted the party and forgave what looked like complacency. Principles must matter, and plans or thoughts are only good if effectively & efficiently executed. It is beyond time to firmly politically push back. Facts matter to most especially if their is clarity & a passion.