We really need to get those puberty blocker studies linked because if you google "puberty blockers children lower IQ," this is the first study that comes up, which claims the opposite (despite it being a study full of weaknesses as noted by the authors themselves). Anyone who is insistent puberty blockers are harmless and fact checks this will see this come up first and feel convinced they have more "proof" that anything being said by SEGM can't be trusted. Can someone put pressure on SEGM to link those studies ASAP? Otherwise, I think it's doing more harm than good to make that big of a claim without links to the studies to back it up.
As another Québécoise, I think the debate was ok, but JF Lisée is perceived as a polemist so he might be discarded beforehand. I would have liked a longer talk and I would have like him to not focus so much on the valorisation of heterosexuality but to ask « why is it that a girl who likes trucks and short hair is necessarily not a girl? ». The gender specialist was limited in her argument, pretending that we need to just focus on gender diversity to achieve equality. I would have like to hear the word confusion a little more. It’s a good start. There will be more, apparently.
I hope my fourth grader doesn’t get the gender unicorn this year. If so, he probably will draw a guitar on it and change it to a Metal music album cover.
Per your comment about Lisée, yes, it's the eternal problem with how partisan this discussion has become. As is noted in the Hidden Brain podcast, when extreme partisanship is in play, we behave just as we do as if we were in a cult: members find it virtually impossible to listen to outside perspectives
I'll have to ask my ex -- an "emigre" from Quebec to "God's country" (BC 😉🙂) -- what she thinks of that interview. Particularly as her grandson is still there and probably in grade 7 or so.
But following along with your question, I'd like to ask those panelists, even if a "girl" who likes trucks is no longer a girl does that mean that "she" is no longer an XXer and no longer a female (potentially at least)?
Too many are confusing sex and gender, particularly by using "male" and "female" as sub-categories of both sex and gender. Nice to see that Lisa explicitly used here recently "masculine" and "feminine" for genders.
Somewhat apropos of which, y'all might have some interest in a conversation I'm having on those topics with "Hippiesq", the mother of a teenage dysphoric daughter:
"Pick your organ." Next time you are accused of being centered on the genitals of the god-children, ask the respondent to pick any organ in the body and look up the carcinogenic effects of cross-sex hormones.
Thank you so much, Kate, and to Alejandra Q, for yet another action-packed round-up. You note, re the SEGM panels, that one discussion was about “whether there are transgender brains (no).” I tried searching Sallie Baxendale, but could not ID an article from her on this. Anyway, I would love a definitive link on this, as I have a friend who keeps bringing up eg an old Schwaab study and SciAm article he picked up somewhere and will not let go of, despite my many efforts to debunk it. He’s generally pretty strongly on board on our side, I am glad to say, but I would like very much to put this dumb loose end to bed once and for all.
I'll let you know if I can find the details from Baxendale's other presentation! As I recall, the early brain studies that showed differences did not control for sexual orientation or for the effects of cross-sex hormones
You are a champ, finding this! Thank you so much. I have read it no now sent it on to my friend (who is a visual artist, not a scientist, BTW). We shall see . . .
what I learned in that conference needs to be made public anyway possible bc I didn’t think I could be more shocked than I was. But I am. They actually have data on blockers from Europe the US deserves to know. NOW. CNN!
Finland has some data that show mental health DECLINES post administration of cross sex hormones….of course this needs to be translated and posted on the front page of every newspaper. STAT
The sample study group was really small so it can’t really be used as “evidence PBs may effect IQ but the fact that the US isn’t even taking a pause and insisting on a moratorium until we have better research is crazy. I can’t believe one girl saw a 15 poiny drop in IQ...possibly from puberty blocker side effects! How could anyone justify a cost benefit ratio for these drugs when they very well may be prohibiting brain development? How can even the most weird ass doctor (turban) justify that
a loss of IQ that significant? I can’t believe these drugs are being used when we have this information. And on kids! Just kids.
IQ is only one measurement we know some but what about all the unknowns of these drugs...how did we get to a place where scientists are experimenting on sheep and mice but will gladly gives drugs to kids with absolutely NO IDEA of the side effects?
This is so creepy.
If the MSM reports on any of this conference it will be great bc this conference was shocking to me. First the US and Canadian researchers NEED to get the Finish translations and access to their research. I’m so glad they discussed making Scandinavian research more accessible. I attended both days via zoom and the conference was excellent. Excellent panels of experts.
Regarding the greater incidence of heart disease and possibly diabetes in transwomen, are you referring to medicalized (taking hormones, has surgery) transwomen? I'm guessing so but wasn't sure.
No, that's not what the article or original research says--in fact, they could weakly link the problems to testosterone for transmen but not to estrogen and testosterone suppression for transwomen. Again, so many of these studies are flawed that we have to hold their conclusions/speculations about causes very lightly.
I've been thinking about how doping in athletics is supposed to be verboten, but gender identity trumps that. Might as well make it a free-for-all and just accept athletes can do whatever steroids they want, because who is going to police whether or not their gender claims have any validity?
We really need to get those puberty blocker studies linked because if you google "puberty blockers children lower IQ," this is the first study that comes up, which claims the opposite (despite it being a study full of weaknesses as noted by the authors themselves). Anyone who is insistent puberty blockers are harmless and fact checks this will see this come up first and feel convinced they have more "proof" that anything being said by SEGM can't be trusted. Can someone put pressure on SEGM to link those studies ASAP? Otherwise, I think it's doing more harm than good to make that big of a claim without links to the studies to back it up.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9574895/
Lisa actually has some notes from the conference that I will add to the bottom of this In Brief in a few minutes, so stay tuned for an update.
Updated (and updated to make clear the notes are from an anonymous attendee!)
Thank you!
As another Québécoise, I think the debate was ok, but JF Lisée is perceived as a polemist so he might be discarded beforehand. I would have liked a longer talk and I would have like him to not focus so much on the valorisation of heterosexuality but to ask « why is it that a girl who likes trucks and short hair is necessarily not a girl? ». The gender specialist was limited in her argument, pretending that we need to just focus on gender diversity to achieve equality. I would have like to hear the word confusion a little more. It’s a good start. There will be more, apparently.
I hope my fourth grader doesn’t get the gender unicorn this year. If so, he probably will draw a guitar on it and change it to a Metal music album cover.
Per your comment about Lisée, yes, it's the eternal problem with how partisan this discussion has become. As is noted in the Hidden Brain podcast, when extreme partisanship is in play, we behave just as we do as if we were in a cult: members find it virtually impossible to listen to outside perspectives
Just say the opposite of them, even if it makes no sense.
I'll have to ask my ex -- an "emigre" from Quebec to "God's country" (BC 😉🙂) -- what she thinks of that interview. Particularly as her grandson is still there and probably in grade 7 or so.
But following along with your question, I'd like to ask those panelists, even if a "girl" who likes trucks is no longer a girl does that mean that "she" is no longer an XXer and no longer a female (potentially at least)?
Too many are confusing sex and gender, particularly by using "male" and "female" as sub-categories of both sex and gender. Nice to see that Lisa explicitly used here recently "masculine" and "feminine" for genders.
Somewhat apropos of which, y'all might have some interest in a conversation I'm having on those topics with "Hippiesq", the mother of a teenage dysphoric daughter:
https://humanuseofhumanbeings.substack.com/p/accidental-and-essential-properties
By discarded, I meant by people that could benefit the conversation.
"Pick your organ." Next time you are accused of being centered on the genitals of the god-children, ask the respondent to pick any organ in the body and look up the carcinogenic effects of cross-sex hormones.
Thanks for the great write-up!
Thank you so much, Kate, and to Alejandra Q, for yet another action-packed round-up. You note, re the SEGM panels, that one discussion was about “whether there are transgender brains (no).” I tried searching Sallie Baxendale, but could not ID an article from her on this. Anyway, I would love a definitive link on this, as I have a friend who keeps bringing up eg an old Schwaab study and SciAm article he picked up somewhere and will not let go of, despite my many efforts to debunk it. He’s generally pretty strongly on board on our side, I am glad to say, but I would like very much to put this dumb loose end to bed once and for all.
I'll let you know if I can find the details from Baxendale's other presentation! As I recall, the early brain studies that showed differences did not control for sexual orientation or for the effects of cross-sex hormones
Thank you! Yes, I seem to recall Colin Wright noting the lack of control for sexuality, though I don’t have a link for that analysis.
Here you go: https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/gender-ideologys-shaky-twin-pillars
You are a champ, finding this! Thank you so much. I have read it no now sent it on to my friend (who is a visual artist, not a scientist, BTW). We shall see . . .
what I learned in that conference needs to be made public anyway possible bc I didn’t think I could be more shocked than I was. But I am. They actually have data on blockers from Europe the US deserves to know. NOW. CNN!
Finland has some data that show mental health DECLINES post administration of cross sex hormones….of course this needs to be translated and posted on the front page of every newspaper. STAT
The sample study group was really small so it can’t really be used as “evidence PBs may effect IQ but the fact that the US isn’t even taking a pause and insisting on a moratorium until we have better research is crazy. I can’t believe one girl saw a 15 poiny drop in IQ...possibly from puberty blocker side effects! How could anyone justify a cost benefit ratio for these drugs when they very well may be prohibiting brain development? How can even the most weird ass doctor (turban) justify that
a loss of IQ that significant? I can’t believe these drugs are being used when we have this information. And on kids! Just kids.
IQ is only one measurement we know some but what about all the unknowns of these drugs...how did we get to a place where scientists are experimenting on sheep and mice but will gladly gives drugs to kids with absolutely NO IDEA of the side effects?
This is so creepy.
If the MSM reports on any of this conference it will be great bc this conference was shocking to me. First the US and Canadian researchers NEED to get the Finish translations and access to their research. I’m so glad they discussed making Scandinavian research more accessible. I attended both days via zoom and the conference was excellent. Excellent panels of experts.
Regarding the greater incidence of heart disease and possibly diabetes in transwomen, are you referring to medicalized (taking hormones, has surgery) transwomen? I'm guessing so but wasn't sure.
No, that's not what the article or original research says--in fact, they could weakly link the problems to testosterone for transmen but not to estrogen and testosterone suppression for transwomen. Again, so many of these studies are flawed that we have to hold their conclusions/speculations about causes very lightly.
Excellent answer. Like a scientist.
I've been thinking about how doping in athletics is supposed to be verboten, but gender identity trumps that. Might as well make it a free-for-all and just accept athletes can do whatever steroids they want, because who is going to police whether or not their gender claims have any validity?