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More Time with Friends's avatar

JAMA's report surveying the incidence of youth sex change surgeries with folks from Harvard and Brown opens with the following: "Gender-affirming health care aims to align an individual's physical gender expression with their intrinsic gender identity."

I've just been sitting with that sentence, thinking about how something like that can be published in a publication like JAMA by academics from the finest institutions on earth. I am trying to piece this all together. Sometimes it's all I can think about. I think and think about how I can get through to my friends. I am having success in private, deep conversations, seeing people wake up in the safety of private, earnest engagement. I am also finding far more people have concerns than I realized and that we are slowly moving towards a world where concern about youth gender care is obvious, and I seek solace in the fact that my concerns started there before moving naturally towards a questioning of the entire gnosis.

I want zero harm to anyone and want people to have the agency to live in peace however they want within the bounds of the law. But we need to find a way out of this movement, which has completely captured an enormous swathe of the country.

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Lisa Selin Davis's avatar

Indeed. Medicating a "transcendent sense of gender" is hard to digest. But, honestly, it's good that it's hard. I suppose a whole bunch of people have become medical ruminants, who can chew up any kind of garbage and make it a fortifying meal...

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Suzanne's avatar

This is so well put, and resonates so deeply. Thank you.

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parasocialite's avatar

I've been wrestling with this. It does seem online and in media as if more opinions are shifting, even if people in my own life are still pushing back on even the gentlest dissent.

This week I tried to tell my not-quite-partner some of my reservations about the gender movement and he brushed it off as my paying too much attention to a) the most extremist trans activists and b) a couple of gender-obssessed friends that I've been growing apart from and he's always found narcissistic. After all, he said, the trans people he's known have all been normal people with normal interests who just happened to be trans; it never came up in conversation because they didn't make gender their entire personalities like my annoying enby friends do; he's pretty sure that's true of most trans people.

That's also how this conversation went the last time I tried to bring it up two or three years ago (that time, it was that I paid too much attention to idiots on social media). I apparently come off as a mildly reactionary uncritical thinker who would judge a harmless and beleaguered minority group by the fact that a handful of its loudest members are assholes. But if I pushed harder and said it's not about individuals but about the ideological capture of every mainstream institution, I'd sound like a Q-anon conspiracist... so I tell him I agree most individual trans people just want to live their lives, I want people to be free to express themselves however they want and I support civil rights and non-discrimination protections, I just think some of the ideas aren't actually that progressive, and then I let it go.

So I'm biting my tongue again and wondering if this is just something we can't talk about, if self-censoring for the long term is a viable way to live, and if it makes me a crank to be this annoyed about whether gender theory is bullshit, since apparently no one else in my life seems to have a problem with it. (Youth transition is of course where the real horror is, but almost no one I'm close to has kids yet, so adult identities tend to come up much more often for me IRL.)

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Inger's avatar

I feel you on this, it’s hard.

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Mama Bear Proud's avatar

How are you going about those conversations? I can’t seem to get friends who conflate it with being gay to move on their position.

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Puzzle Therapy's avatar

Honestly, I think the fact that they so often conflate it with gay is a red herring. It's the surface narrative, not the real issue. In my experience, what's really the issue and the stumbling block in having meaningful conversations is one of three things: 1) The person absolutely can't get past the idea they are agreeing with a "right wing," Republican, or conservative belief. Of course, it's not just an issue for people on the right, but it's coded that way in their minds and they absolutely cannot open their mind to it. It's literally not a safe thought to engage with. It literally threatens their identity. I'm not sure if this can ever lose that connotation, at least not for a very long time. For these people, I think the best we can hope for is finding a way for them to opt out and not care about the issue so that insurance companies, politicians, and professional orgs can quietly change to a more science-based approach without fears of backlash. 2) The people who believe there are people who are truly trans, however they define that (female brain in a male body, some "true" form of gender dysphoria that can be accurately diagnosed, etc). These are the people I've talked to who 100% agree there's a social contagion or trend happening and those kids shouldn't transition (but they are quick to add that they think adults can do whatever they want to and don't understand that all the kids caught up in this don't just magically stop or deserve bad medicine just because they've turned 18), but they believe we have to keep doing everything for all the "true trans" people and they have confidence that doctors can sort out who's "really trans" and the treatments all work beautifully for them. They have faith that no doctor would medicate or operate on a confused teen girl. It either doesn't happen or it happens only because the doctors could diagnose her as "truly trans" and really needing this. Same for the effeminate men and the middle aged men who promise they have always felt this way since they were children. This is an extremely hard one to get past because no matter what angle you take, you come across as being mean and callous about the "real" people. The closest I have come is getting one person to admit they didn't know that before every kid was put on puberty blockers, the vast majority desisted. 3) Are the people I've talked to who are so certain that every gender dysphoric kid will commit suicide that you have to transition them to save them in the short term even if they regret it later. I've had no success with people who believe this.

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Melissa R.'s avatar

You have solved the puzzle, Puzzle Therapy.

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More Time with Friends's avatar

First, I think it's tough for all of us, and I'm in early innings on my engagement within my friend group on this subject. Second, I am very interested in trying to develop a playbook on how to address this subject (or to be pointed to one that exists).

My approach in a recent, very long 4th of July conversation with two dear, dear friends was first positioning upfront to the point of being almost obnoxious that I am coming from a place of love, that I want everyone to be happy and healthy, and that no one should be hurt for what they like / want / believe. I find that being so adamant here helps to dispel the notion that divergence from the gender movement is a sign of being a mean-spirited person.

I started with concerns about youth transition and lean on Cass and Scandinavia as points for us to talk through (Lisa's recent reporting on Hopkins-WPATH adds an enormous amount here as well). The youth "gender medicine" question is by far the most salient and obvious entry point to the conversation. I was then able to discuss Riley Gaines' story of Lia Thomas looking at her naked in the locker room, while he was also naked, to some effect since this is such a visceral anecdote, even if Gaines has become a bogeywoman for the left.

Where I know I have failed is going too fast. I have a friend, who is a lefty barnacle. We go back and forth and back and forth on this issue. He has, thankfully, quietly become accepting of the issues around youth "gender medicine," but remains convinced that not accepting a transwoman as a woman is the provenance of The Unkind. I have been too quick to get upset or share angry pieces with him (e.g. Megan Murphy's response to Freddie de Boer), which he says just comes off as mean-spirited and turns him off.

This is far too long, and I would *love* to hear from others who have had success, but the tl;dr is that I'm trying to take it slow and accept that these victories come in stages rather than necessarily a single epiphany.

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aVeryGoodTyrone's avatar

Good comments, and dovetails with my experience of finding more people concerned about this than I thought, when speaking privately. Can you provide a link to the JAMA report?

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Not so young anymore.'s avatar

It’s such an utter bullshit word salad.

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dog mom's avatar

My MTF child, 18, has started hormones. Got them from Planned Parenthood after a one-hour appt. He is on the spectrum, recently disclosed to us that he was sexually assaulted a few years ago (about 9 months before starting to identify as trans). It's so clear to us that the assault and the autism are behind his dysphoria, but he is choosing hormones over therapy. We are gutted. Part of me wants to go public with our story, part of me just wants to hide. But groups like this are so very important and comforting. Thanks, everyone, especially Lisa. 😘

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Lisa Selin Davis's avatar

I'm really sorry. That's so hard. What Planned Parenthood is doing really needs to be exposed.

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Not so young anymore.'s avatar

Yes someone needs to write an expose of what they are doing

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Delightful Oddling's avatar

I am so sorry. My now-desisted daughter identified as trans for two years (ages 11-13) for the same reasons. She was undiagnosed autistic at the time (now diagnosed) and she also revealed to us at that time that she had been abused at school when she was younger. I know our circumstances are different, but autism and sexual abuse abound in the population of vulnerable kids being sucked in by the madness. In our daughter's case, she was taught and encouraged into it at school, both "academically" and socially.

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Melissa R.'s avatar

I am so sorry, Sheryl.

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Susan Scheid's avatar

I am so terribly sorry. My heart goes out to you.💕💕💕

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Melissa R.'s avatar

What frightens me: True Believers.

What frightens me: Democrats don't get it. I despair. Cannot vote for Biden or Trump.

What inspires me: People who say something, do something. Thank you, fearless journalists. Thank you, Genspect. Thank you, SEGM. Thank you, LGBT Courage Coalition.

What inspires me, soothes me: nature, getting outside, hiking.

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Meredith Bell Brown's avatar

I’m deeply worried about the impact of a Trump-Vance victory on what are already deeply entrenched positions. I want all this gender nonsense gone yesterday but recognize that sweeping changes pushed through by a second Trump administration are just going to fan the flames. The madness in California (where I live) is only going to get worse in response to top down mandates.

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Puzzle Therapy's avatar

100% agree. I believe the ONLY way we will get any real change that ends the chokehold this ideology has on both kids and adults will be if change happens at the personal opinion level of people on the left. We're finally starting to have some baby steps where Democrats can see a New aYork Times article and have "permission" and not feel like it's taboo to at least start questioning the dominant narrative. If Trump wins, I fear the left will go back to believing it's dangerous, unsafe, and the realm of right wing extremism to ask questions or tentatively start talking about it with friends. The last time Trump was president "protect trans kids" was one of the easiest ways to signal you were on the "right side."

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More Time with Friends's avatar

I fear something similar, that a Trump victory will just cause a large contingent to dig in even more firmly.

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Not so young anymore.'s avatar

They won’t go away under Biden. He does nothing. They deserve Trump actually. They partially caused him

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Hazel-rah's avatar

I can't imagine much more top-down than a state law forbidding schools from telling parents about key events in their kids' development.

Reasonable people rightly interpret that as a huge step toward totalitarianism.

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HD's avatar
Jul 17Edited

I could not agree more. The sweeping changes, combined with the recent Supreme Court ruling, will amount to no less than dictatorship - and sadly, this will only ignite the culture wars. Lots of people (with no skin in the game) screaming from both sides. Meanwhile, our children are the political footballs.

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dollarsandsense's avatar

I don't see it that way. Yes, there is always reaction. But doing nothing means more young people are harmed. Doing something, adding friction, might delay things enough that fewer young people are harmed.

I just don't like the idea that no one can do anything because crazy people will double down.

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Elaine Fraser's avatar

Hi from Scotland

Yes it’s one step forward here ( Cass) and two steps back ( Conversion Therapy etc) but we keep going

Truth matters

Sex matters

Women Wont Wheesht

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LeAnne Owen's avatar

I saw Lucinda last winter. She’s still wonderful. If you haven’t read her memoir I highly recommend it. She reads it on audible and it was delightful in her slow southern drawl.

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Susan Scheid's avatar

“Why is Rachel Levine still out there?” 💯💯💯 This man has a serious psychiatric disorder. He should be absolutely nowhere near a place of power for anything, least of all advising on provision of medical care for children and young people. It is grotesque.

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Chalky Undertaste's avatar

I don't care if he missed the notes, I now have What's So Funny About Peace Love and Understanding running through my head, which is a very good thing! (Especially because it replaced the REO Speedwagon song my neighbor's roofer was blasting this morning.) I've also been listening over and over to "Thirteen" by Big Star because it inspired me to pick up a guitar for the first time in a very long while in order to learn it.

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Lisa Selin Davis's avatar

I love Thirteen so much...although it's really a song about trying to convince a young girl to have sex. But anyway...BIG STAR FOREVER!

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Susan Scheid's avatar

I have been watching video discussions among some really terrific, thoughtful people. One was with Lisa and Louise Perry on the subject of challenges facing mothers and motherhood: https://youtu.be/X_yrKNqBHak?si=NADKPnVSX4rLHRLA. Another is a set of podcasts I learned about through Aaron Kimberly called, “The Reappearing Lesbian”. The second, which I found particularly touching, was about lesbian communities, past, present, and future: https://youtu.be/Jgt-z4zTrBo?si=gwBt6qj2fKVDlSGr

I found the conversations wholly genuine in their explorations of how to find mutual support and build community. I commend them to all.

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Benjamin Ryan's avatar

King Charles is speaking today, relaying Labour’s support for banning conversion therapy:

https://x.com/benryanwriter/status/1813527368595607802?s=46

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Meredith Bell Brown's avatar

The UK had come a long way in the last couple of years. I am gutted by this news.

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Christine's avatar

This is so weird to me as a Swede. Our royal family would never speak out publicly on any policy issue, much less a contentious one. They’re discouraged from doing so. Then again, unlike the British royal family, they hold no political power whatsoever.

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Hippiesq's avatar

My husband and son were at that concert. My son was disappointed in Costello, but my husband said he was still pretty entertaining even though his vocal were off.

Anyway, I'm disturbed by the unwillingness of those high up in government to take a stand that makes any sense on the issues surrounding so-called gender affirming care. Why is Rachel Levine still out there? Having pressured WPATH to remove lower age limits and rush through SOC8 was wholly inappropriate, and yet nobody is held to account at HHS. Having at least indicated disapproval of surgeries performed on minors for gender-related distress in response to that revelation, two days later, the White House reversed course and indicated that it was totally on-board with any kind of medical interventions for minors, no matter the complete lack of evidence base for them - after pressure came from HRC and other activist organizations. I fear that, whether we have a Democrat or a Republican in the White House, nobody is going to act in the best interests of vulnerable young people, and the medical malpractice will just go unchecked for years to come. I hope I'm wrong!

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Delightful Oddling's avatar

One simple thing that keeps me hopeful is just connecting with humans here on stubstack. I also do what I can in my personal conversations. I appreciate hearing More Time With Friends talk about that, too, below. And Lisa, we all appreciate you so much.

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dollarsandsense's avatar

I’m not an Elon Musk fan (he’s erratic, self-important, and enjoys being a troll). However, he announced that he is moving his companies to Texas because CA Gov Newsom just signed a bill *preventing* schools from informing parents if a child transitions. Musk says it’s the last straw.

So, I wonder if Musk’s ability to publicize this terrible law will help wake up more people to this disaster. Parents don’t want to be lied to, especially not about their children’s health and safety.

Musk has openly criticized gender ideology, has a son (MTF) from whom he is estranged, so this isn’t a new issue for him. But maybe more people will notice now—or am I grasping at straws?

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HD's avatar
Jul 17Edited

This has been my theme song of late. Frazey Ford - Done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXRrySTujn8

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Ann's avatar

I’ve been listening to Joni Mitchell’s COURT AND SPARK album. The Pennsylvania Psychological Association has forbidden any further discussion of the Cass Review on its listserv, as it does not meet its standards for being evidenced based and discussion of it is harming LGBTQ+ listserv members.

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Suspension Report's avatar

thanks for your great blog.

we have started a whole women's rights section on the site, since women's rights are being suspended left and right (literally) nowadays. please keep us posted if there is anything we missed you think should go on there. https://suspensionreport.com/womens-rights

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Matt Osborne's avatar

Was recently introduced to Junie & TheHuttFriends https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7xGx9EpDZg

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Judy Graves's avatar

Did I read the JAMA report wrong, or were all the reported breast reductions done on natal males?

Why would a natal male transitioning to female want a breast reduction?

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Ava's avatar

Disappointed to learn that Elvis now misses most of his notes. Was he worse than that singer I'd never heard of who has apologized for her rendition of the national anthem? Has he become the Joe Biden of rock music—the revered elder statesman who thinks he is still the GOAT even as he stumbles and mumbles through every performance?

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Sara Cash's avatar

I don’t recall EC being particularly on pitch even back in the day🤓Just sayin…

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Ava's avatar

I just watched a video of him from last year, and there has definitely been serious degradation since the few times I heard him live 30+ years ago. Guess I've been out of the Elvis loop for a while.

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