Fascinating interview. Reminds me of some classic issues that never get brought up in this area, which is transference the inability to not project your own inner wishes and feelings on a patient and denial in the service of the ego which Anna Freud so beautifully described. The area of trans therapist I personally would not recommend a child who is questioning to see a trans therapist because they have a transference issue which has not been addressed and will lack clarity of vision not to project their agenda
Thank you both for this interview. Joe Berger always brings so much insight and richness to the discussion and to the work. His was one of the most interesting presentations at the Therapy First retreat last year. Having worked with trans young people and their families pretty intensely in the past 4 years, I can confirm that the nodes of conflict and anxiety in the family system contribute to the conditions in which a child (and in some cases, more than one child) will assert transgender identity. In every single case where I’ve seen the young person desist the parents have worked to shift their effort away from “fixing” the kid and toward working on their own unresolved conflicts and anxieties.
I remember the first lesbian I knew who “transitioned” back around 2000, said life was a lot easier to be a man rather than a butch lesbian. Your comment re cognitive dissonance is spot on.
You asked what a parent should do when a child suggests he or she is non-binary trans.
Can’t you just say that human beings aren’t butterflies - they can’t transition? And once you reveal reality to the child, help the child deal with that reality. Like it’s OK to not conform to gender behaviour stereotypes. It doesn’t mean you’re ’in the wrong body’.
You state that Jo has transitioned, but human beings CAN’T transition. Why isn’t Jo simply a butch lesbian who has had a double mastectomy and has taken testosterone to deepen her voice? She is an artificially masculinised lesbian, so be it. There isn’t a third intermediary type of sex.
thank you for this conversation. i feel a little sad that Davis lives in a school district that is so brainwashed. even though I voted for Biden, "progressive" school districts is something ive tried to avoid. our small family has been pretty lucky living jn areas that were ether red, purple or for a couple years in a district in southern California thats primarily Vietnamese. my kids were fortunate to experience how well behaved and disciplined those kids were, all due to tough parenting of first generation americans. in this community all the city officials are Vietnamese. of course there is zero gender BS taught in these schools. the parents wouldnt stand for it.
my wife had a tough childhood. it caused her to lose touch with reality, sometimes for weeks at a time due to debilitating negative thoughts. that didnt happen often. but other less serious symptoms have also been a challenge for her and me. she says if her childhood therapists had simply told her that certain ways of thinking, certain actions, would lead to negative outcomes, that would have helped her most of all. but therapists never do that. thats really not their job. kids dont understand that when they speak with therapists, they arent speaking with an adult who is responsible for any life outcome. a therapists goal is to get paid, not "help" people. if their customers ever did get better, therapists would be out of a job. so therapists listen and listen and listen, giving tacit approval for every destructive idea and behavior, while knowing the more screwed up their patients get the more money goes into therapists' pockets. when adults listen to kids destructive ideas and dont say "no" its interpreted as a yes. its generally thought that therapy is a harmless activity that can only be benign and neutral. therapy is thought of as helpful in every situation. but more and more we are learning that therapy often doesnt help anything and even can be harmful. a case can be made that our therapy culture is part of why gender beliefs became so popular. people want to participate in an endeavor where they get attention. whats clear after decades of listening to my wife describe her therapists, most of them have psych issues or personality problems worse than their clients, just are better at hiding it. most have knowledge but very little wisdom.
Thank you both for this conversation! Wow.
Like you both, I’m a heretic among gender-credent folks—and I’m neither hateful nor rightwing.
Lisa, I keep sharing your work in an effort to disrupt the left-vs-right framing, and will be sharing this interview too. So grateful for you. <3
Fascinating interview. Reminds me of some classic issues that never get brought up in this area, which is transference the inability to not project your own inner wishes and feelings on a patient and denial in the service of the ego which Anna Freud so beautifully described. The area of trans therapist I personally would not recommend a child who is questioning to see a trans therapist because they have a transference issue which has not been addressed and will lack clarity of vision not to project their agenda
onto a vulnerable child.
Thank you both for this interview. Joe Berger always brings so much insight and richness to the discussion and to the work. His was one of the most interesting presentations at the Therapy First retreat last year. Having worked with trans young people and their families pretty intensely in the past 4 years, I can confirm that the nodes of conflict and anxiety in the family system contribute to the conditions in which a child (and in some cases, more than one child) will assert transgender identity. In every single case where I’ve seen the young person desist the parents have worked to shift their effort away from “fixing” the kid and toward working on their own unresolved conflicts and anxieties.
In my CA MSW Program (also 2010-2012), the topic of "trans kids" never came up in professor lectures, classroom discussions, or class presentations.
I remember the first lesbian I knew who “transitioned” back around 2000, said life was a lot easier to be a man rather than a butch lesbian. Your comment re cognitive dissonance is spot on.
I have always suspected, being gay myself, that gender world is a universe of homophobia.
He will always be a woman, no matter the chemical or cosmetic changes.
Joe doesn't deny that.
Excellent interview, the therapist is very insightful!
I appreciate and support both of you🙂
You asked what a parent should do when a child suggests he or she is non-binary trans.
Can’t you just say that human beings aren’t butterflies - they can’t transition? And once you reveal reality to the child, help the child deal with that reality. Like it’s OK to not conform to gender behaviour stereotypes. It doesn’t mean you’re ’in the wrong body’.
You state that Jo has transitioned, but human beings CAN’T transition. Why isn’t Jo simply a butch lesbian who has had a double mastectomy and has taken testosterone to deepen her voice? She is an artificially masculinised lesbian, so be it. There isn’t a third intermediary type of sex.
thank you for this conversation. i feel a little sad that Davis lives in a school district that is so brainwashed. even though I voted for Biden, "progressive" school districts is something ive tried to avoid. our small family has been pretty lucky living jn areas that were ether red, purple or for a couple years in a district in southern California thats primarily Vietnamese. my kids were fortunate to experience how well behaved and disciplined those kids were, all due to tough parenting of first generation americans. in this community all the city officials are Vietnamese. of course there is zero gender BS taught in these schools. the parents wouldnt stand for it.
my wife had a tough childhood. it caused her to lose touch with reality, sometimes for weeks at a time due to debilitating negative thoughts. that didnt happen often. but other less serious symptoms have also been a challenge for her and me. she says if her childhood therapists had simply told her that certain ways of thinking, certain actions, would lead to negative outcomes, that would have helped her most of all. but therapists never do that. thats really not their job. kids dont understand that when they speak with therapists, they arent speaking with an adult who is responsible for any life outcome. a therapists goal is to get paid, not "help" people. if their customers ever did get better, therapists would be out of a job. so therapists listen and listen and listen, giving tacit approval for every destructive idea and behavior, while knowing the more screwed up their patients get the more money goes into therapists' pockets. when adults listen to kids destructive ideas and dont say "no" its interpreted as a yes. its generally thought that therapy is a harmless activity that can only be benign and neutral. therapy is thought of as helpful in every situation. but more and more we are learning that therapy often doesnt help anything and even can be harmful. a case can be made that our therapy culture is part of why gender beliefs became so popular. people want to participate in an endeavor where they get attention. whats clear after decades of listening to my wife describe her therapists, most of them have psych issues or personality problems worse than their clients, just are better at hiding it. most have knowledge but very little wisdom.
I will wait for someone to bring up the term transphobia!