This is key : “This should be a story about the ethical quandary of giving sex changes to people with severe mental health problems and unstable identities”.
My #1 goal is to stop medicalizing distressed young people your statement above is #2. And near the end of Affirmation Generation you spoke eloquently about one way we do that is hold space and support gender, and sexually diverse people. There is so much underneath all of this that needs to be understood
This is incredibly sad. Some of the first interviews I found when trying to understand what was going on with the sudden increase in teen trans identities were interviews with Shupe, both in their male and female identities. I knew basically nothing then, but I was struck even then by how deeply unhappy, unwell, self-destructive, and unstable Shupe was based on the stories Shupe told and their own self-analysis. One theme that came up in those interviews was that when Shupe was not on hormones, they were overwhelmed with AGP, destructive and dangerous sexual behaviors, and wanting to be a woman. When on estrogen, the intense sex drive was gone, but so was the desire to be a woman, and they would become unhappy, so it was a terrible catch 22. It seems like this is a perfect example of why scientists need to be allowed to research alternative treatments for gender dysphoria. Even without the struggles of someone like Shupe (and I doubt Shupe is an isolated case), not everyone can physically tolerate hormones and surgery. Isn’t it just cruel and inhumane to not allow the development of different treatment approaches?
Yes, Shupe discussed this with me, too—that the "puberty blockers" and estrogens were the only things that quelled these desires, desires that Shupe found difficult to navigate. So I'm not sure that's continuing a transition. I think it's managing an illness.
Also, for what it’s worth, I think “borderline personality disorder” has become a catch-all diagnosis applied to anyone with significant emotional dysregulation. It’s like the way “fever” was a diagnosis during Victorian times rather than being recognized as a symptom that comes with many different underlying causes. BPD is useful as a label only to the extent that it highlights extreme emotional dysregulation (which can have countless causes) and the cascade of symptoms and behaviors that be caused by extreme emotional dysregulation (self-harming, self-destructive behaviors, fear of abandonment, unstable identity, impulsivity, etc). The label can also help by pointing a person to DBT (one of the few evidence based therapies out there). But I still think it’s become a catch-all way of saying “this person has significant emotional dysregulation and I need to make that point plus I need an ICD code for insurance.”
one persons experiences isnt the basis of anything. if there is evidence the "care" helps - lets see it. there is none. i view shupe's cycles of happiness and unhappiness as not much different than the average male experience. he just vocalizes it more becuase hes a narcissist who seeks attention. shupe's experiences of chasing an agp high rang true becuase they were sort of typical of what some agp ppl do. but there are many many more ppl with agp fetish who keep it to themselves becuase they see no advantage to sharing. having an agp fetish may not be a choice. but acting on it is. the agp high is more similar to high of recreational drugs like cocain or heroin. the highs and lows of agp addiction are similar to a drug addition. no one advocates for giving drug addicts more recreational drugs. why not? becuase that would lead to more misery for the adict. but if heroin adicts could, they would claim they're powerless over their addiction. they would claim that shooting herion is really just "who they are". they would tell ppl that snorting cocain makes them feel like their "real self". agp adicts can stop acting on their fetish at any moment. maybe some need help to do this. but enabling them isnt the answer.
Incredible! We have quite a Shakespearean cast of characters in that article, with no reference to the Benjamin Boyce/Shupe interviews from just over a year ago. I recommend reading the article, as a prime example of an anti-female screed, clearly influenced by the instructions on a webpage called Trans Journalists Association Style Guide. Shupe, with Boyce raptly listening, described the pain he put his wife through (sorry, I just have to stay with bio-pronouns) when he went out bar-hopping and cheated on her repeatedly, with both men and women. There is a daughter, (home with Mom, no doubt, during his escapades) but no mention of those two natal females, as usual, in the middle aged male version of his story of "transition." Shupe's gestures and language in the Boyce interviews indicated a mental health breakdown and demonstrated a highly manipulative mode. Boyce did not lead Shupe in the interview questions. The article references the "wrong" approach to treatment the first time he was on estrogen, but does not criticize the practitioners who do exactly the same, giving high doses of testosterone to teen girls. Shupe's case, including a chaotic childhood with alcoholic parents, openly described on Boyce's channel, as well as the referenced childhood sexual molestation, point to an important and common past in these men: abuse. Thank you Lisa, for your candor regarding personal mental health challenges and for writing about trans widows. A window into the extreme psychological cruelty experienced by us wives, who are often mothers of the children fathered by these guys, is demonstrated by the complete absence of Shupe's wife and daughter in this article. Why anyone would listen to Shupe's conjecture about detransitioner, and eloquent young spokeswoman, Chloe Cole, is beyond comprehension.
I saw this too from the Benjamin Boyce interviews. Shupe was seriously mentally unwell and didn't even acknowledge the importance of childhood abuse. Flipping back and forth between male and female identities and using hormones in this matter, Shupe probably would do much better with some intensive psychotherapy than more media attention every he/she switches from one gender identity to another.
On the other hand, the public display of unwell behavior and the descriptions of aggression, infidelity and irresponsible parenting are revealing. In my work with trans widows, a small cohort, I've found that about 1/3 have been pushed, shoved or choked by him. Excuses always made by the professionals. It is not safe, psychologically and physically to stay in a marriage with this kind of man.
Good point. My guess is that the piece about Shupe was clickbait. He's the aggressive version of my ex-husband, who actually did talk about joining the military! But as a threat.
I for one appreciate your efforts to fight bad legislation while also dealing with this heartbreaking issue at home. It sounds like you're doing the very best you can.
I've been researching this topic area for nearly three years. The people the author is attempting to crucify are fascinating people who are willing to accept personal risk in order to help others.
Very unreliable narrator authoring this piece. Inaccurate black /white thinking. It doesn't make sense. The idea that people are investigating this issue due to deep seated hatred makes no sense. It's not hatred or bigotry. What's to hate? It's genuine concern and a desire to seek truth.
"Gender affirming care" sounds so pleasant and I am sure the author believes that it's like a special prescription based on an enduring medical condition. I think we distance ourselves from the brutal facts with language like that. Up is down, front is back. You almost have to read it knowing that each fact is actually the opposite of what is stated.
Decided not to read the article - I am trying to stay away from pieces that are going to make me angry or despondent, and this one sounds like it would definitely make me very angry. Thank you, Lisa, for standing strong. I can't imagine what it must feel like to take a public stand like you did, be pilloried for it by all sorts of people on both sides, and not give up on it (and not swing one way or the other because it's too hard to keep a nuanced and compassionate view). I hope you know how much this means to all of us who share your concerns but may not have such a public voice.
Oh goodness: " staggering 73 percent"....no, and in fact seattle didn't bother to correct the record when they were caught out misrepresenting what they found.
Thank you for calling this out. And please I hope you are feeling better, your writing is wonderful and I"m sorry if it is taking a lot out of you!! Thank you!
Like so many other conflicts we are facing there seems to be little appetite for resolution, seeking common ground and people arguing in good faith. That means to me that there's a deeper conflict that we'll have to resolve first. Everything else is a proxy war meant to simmer forever. What is the underlying conflict? My hypothesis: A class struggle over values. Progressives not familiar with the issue reflexively take sides against their imagined MAGA boogiemen, while the right wants to weld the softheaded orthodoxies of queer theory to their tormentors in academia. It's only a hypothesis, of course. I despair of persuasion until we can find a workaround to virtue signaling as the primary objective of discourse.
I will take your advice and not read the article (so as, also, not to give it a click) at least for now, but thank you for giving us all a heads up and for all else you do--and for being such a decent, caring person with it all. So with you on this: “The truth is, a whole bunch of different kinds of people have now realized that articles like this promote untruths, and know that entire narratives of those getting hurt have been ignored. They feel drawn to try to make that right. That’s not an anti-trans conspiracy, it’s righting the ship which has gone frighteningly off course.”
This is key : “This should be a story about the ethical quandary of giving sex changes to people with severe mental health problems and unstable identities”.
My #1 goal is to stop medicalizing distressed young people your statement above is #2. And near the end of Affirmation Generation you spoke eloquently about one way we do that is hold space and support gender, and sexually diverse people. There is so much underneath all of this that needs to be understood
This is incredibly sad. Some of the first interviews I found when trying to understand what was going on with the sudden increase in teen trans identities were interviews with Shupe, both in their male and female identities. I knew basically nothing then, but I was struck even then by how deeply unhappy, unwell, self-destructive, and unstable Shupe was based on the stories Shupe told and their own self-analysis. One theme that came up in those interviews was that when Shupe was not on hormones, they were overwhelmed with AGP, destructive and dangerous sexual behaviors, and wanting to be a woman. When on estrogen, the intense sex drive was gone, but so was the desire to be a woman, and they would become unhappy, so it was a terrible catch 22. It seems like this is a perfect example of why scientists need to be allowed to research alternative treatments for gender dysphoria. Even without the struggles of someone like Shupe (and I doubt Shupe is an isolated case), not everyone can physically tolerate hormones and surgery. Isn’t it just cruel and inhumane to not allow the development of different treatment approaches?
Yes, Shupe discussed this with me, too—that the "puberty blockers" and estrogens were the only things that quelled these desires, desires that Shupe found difficult to navigate. So I'm not sure that's continuing a transition. I think it's managing an illness.
Also, for what it’s worth, I think “borderline personality disorder” has become a catch-all diagnosis applied to anyone with significant emotional dysregulation. It’s like the way “fever” was a diagnosis during Victorian times rather than being recognized as a symptom that comes with many different underlying causes. BPD is useful as a label only to the extent that it highlights extreme emotional dysregulation (which can have countless causes) and the cascade of symptoms and behaviors that be caused by extreme emotional dysregulation (self-harming, self-destructive behaviors, fear of abandonment, unstable identity, impulsivity, etc). The label can also help by pointing a person to DBT (one of the few evidence based therapies out there). But I still think it’s become a catch-all way of saying “this person has significant emotional dysregulation and I need to make that point plus I need an ICD code for insurance.”
one persons experiences isnt the basis of anything. if there is evidence the "care" helps - lets see it. there is none. i view shupe's cycles of happiness and unhappiness as not much different than the average male experience. he just vocalizes it more becuase hes a narcissist who seeks attention. shupe's experiences of chasing an agp high rang true becuase they were sort of typical of what some agp ppl do. but there are many many more ppl with agp fetish who keep it to themselves becuase they see no advantage to sharing. having an agp fetish may not be a choice. but acting on it is. the agp high is more similar to high of recreational drugs like cocain or heroin. the highs and lows of agp addiction are similar to a drug addition. no one advocates for giving drug addicts more recreational drugs. why not? becuase that would lead to more misery for the adict. but if heroin adicts could, they would claim they're powerless over their addiction. they would claim that shooting herion is really just "who they are". they would tell ppl that snorting cocain makes them feel like their "real self". agp adicts can stop acting on their fetish at any moment. maybe some need help to do this. but enabling them isnt the answer.
Incredible! We have quite a Shakespearean cast of characters in that article, with no reference to the Benjamin Boyce/Shupe interviews from just over a year ago. I recommend reading the article, as a prime example of an anti-female screed, clearly influenced by the instructions on a webpage called Trans Journalists Association Style Guide. Shupe, with Boyce raptly listening, described the pain he put his wife through (sorry, I just have to stay with bio-pronouns) when he went out bar-hopping and cheated on her repeatedly, with both men and women. There is a daughter, (home with Mom, no doubt, during his escapades) but no mention of those two natal females, as usual, in the middle aged male version of his story of "transition." Shupe's gestures and language in the Boyce interviews indicated a mental health breakdown and demonstrated a highly manipulative mode. Boyce did not lead Shupe in the interview questions. The article references the "wrong" approach to treatment the first time he was on estrogen, but does not criticize the practitioners who do exactly the same, giving high doses of testosterone to teen girls. Shupe's case, including a chaotic childhood with alcoholic parents, openly described on Boyce's channel, as well as the referenced childhood sexual molestation, point to an important and common past in these men: abuse. Thank you Lisa, for your candor regarding personal mental health challenges and for writing about trans widows. A window into the extreme psychological cruelty experienced by us wives, who are often mothers of the children fathered by these guys, is demonstrated by the complete absence of Shupe's wife and daughter in this article. Why anyone would listen to Shupe's conjecture about detransitioner, and eloquent young spokeswoman, Chloe Cole, is beyond comprehension.
I saw this too from the Benjamin Boyce interviews. Shupe was seriously mentally unwell and didn't even acknowledge the importance of childhood abuse. Flipping back and forth between male and female identities and using hormones in this matter, Shupe probably would do much better with some intensive psychotherapy than more media attention every he/she switches from one gender identity to another.
On the other hand, the public display of unwell behavior and the descriptions of aggression, infidelity and irresponsible parenting are revealing. In my work with trans widows, a small cohort, I've found that about 1/3 have been pushed, shoved or choked by him. Excuses always made by the professionals. It is not safe, psychologically and physically to stay in a marriage with this kind of man.
Good point. My guess is that the piece about Shupe was clickbait. He's the aggressive version of my ex-husband, who actually did talk about joining the military! But as a threat.
Thank you for being on team complexity, Lisa!
I for one appreciate your efforts to fight bad legislation while also dealing with this heartbreaking issue at home. It sounds like you're doing the very best you can.
I've been researching this topic area for nearly three years. The people the author is attempting to crucify are fascinating people who are willing to accept personal risk in order to help others.
Very unreliable narrator authoring this piece. Inaccurate black /white thinking. It doesn't make sense. The idea that people are investigating this issue due to deep seated hatred makes no sense. It's not hatred or bigotry. What's to hate? It's genuine concern and a desire to seek truth.
"Gender affirming care" sounds so pleasant and I am sure the author believes that it's like a special prescription based on an enduring medical condition. I think we distance ourselves from the brutal facts with language like that. Up is down, front is back. You almost have to read it knowing that each fact is actually the opposite of what is stated.
For those who don't want to give clicks to the article, an archived version is here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230316173903/https://xtramagazine.com/power/detransition-terf-movement-elisa-shupe-247592
I don't think it contains the Herzog correction though.
Decided not to read the article - I am trying to stay away from pieces that are going to make me angry or despondent, and this one sounds like it would definitely make me very angry. Thank you, Lisa, for standing strong. I can't imagine what it must feel like to take a public stand like you did, be pilloried for it by all sorts of people on both sides, and not give up on it (and not swing one way or the other because it's too hard to keep a nuanced and compassionate view). I hope you know how much this means to all of us who share your concerns but may not have such a public voice.
Oh goodness: " staggering 73 percent"....no, and in fact seattle didn't bother to correct the record when they were caught out misrepresenting what they found.
https://mynorthwest.com/3602854/rantz-despite-concerning-trans-study-uw-kept-quiet-because-of-positive-coverage/
more info here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2150346
Thank you for calling this out. And please I hope you are feeling better, your writing is wonderful and I"m sorry if it is taking a lot out of you!! Thank you!
Like so many other conflicts we are facing there seems to be little appetite for resolution, seeking common ground and people arguing in good faith. That means to me that there's a deeper conflict that we'll have to resolve first. Everything else is a proxy war meant to simmer forever. What is the underlying conflict? My hypothesis: A class struggle over values. Progressives not familiar with the issue reflexively take sides against their imagined MAGA boogiemen, while the right wants to weld the softheaded orthodoxies of queer theory to their tormentors in academia. It's only a hypothesis, of course. I despair of persuasion until we can find a workaround to virtue signaling as the primary objective of discourse.
I will take your advice and not read the article (so as, also, not to give it a click) at least for now, but thank you for giving us all a heads up and for all else you do--and for being such a decent, caring person with it all. So with you on this: “The truth is, a whole bunch of different kinds of people have now realized that articles like this promote untruths, and know that entire narratives of those getting hurt have been ignored. They feel drawn to try to make that right. That’s not an anti-trans conspiracy, it’s righting the ship which has gone frighteningly off course.”