I respected Charlie Kirk as a self educated man, a Christian who knew the Hebrew Bible, a critical thinker, quite fast on his feet, able to counter hypocrisy. He inspired a new generation to hope in the dream of a good life, family and civility in society. Generally, he refrained from disdain or disrespect towards those who stepped up to the microphone and accused him, disrespected his movement and made specious claims. His body of work will be renowned and I imagine his funeral will be a state affair, with speeches skewering the Left for their outrageous rhetoric, which they continue as I write. I didn't agree with all of his positions but I respected him and I know if I'd met him, he would have respected me. I don't miss anything about Park Slope or Prospect Park, where I worked and played for 30 years. I'll be lighting a lot of memorial candles tonight, this Sept. 11 exactly 24 years later.
Thanks, Lisa. Keep writing and talking. Outside of Brooklyn, most people agree with you or at least some of your ideas and analysis. Can your family take a sabbatical to Ogden, Utah or North Platte, Nebraska, or anywhere in Texas except Austin? It might do you all good to break out of your geographical bubble.
Lisa, that was a great perspective on how your world sees us! I am from a different world; flyover country, graduate of state university and medical schools, and Navy retiree. Keep writing; I appreciate your tales from the dark side…
I went to a braver angels meeting yesterday and it was inspiring to meet people who wanted to build bridges from both parties. Thank you for mentioning this organization. I learned more skills for having better conversations with my family and friends who see things in a different way than me.
I knew nothing of Charlie Kirk, so I am more or less a blank slate here. All I can say is that a young husband and father was gunned down because he said things people didn't like. That doesn't sound good to me.
Even if - and again I have no idea - he said outrageous and provocative things and even if he had profit motives that surpassed a true desire to have useful debates - he did not deserve to be killed. We are in a very dangerous time when people are murdered for their words. I don't have (or want) a BlueSky account so I don't know what that link you supplied said, but the fact that anyone would celebrate Kirk's murder, even if they thought he was a jerk (the most polite word I could think of), is quite horrifying.
Look at the videos Lisa linked. Looks like he invited people to debate him and listened to them respectfully and then gave his opinion....basically a blueprint for how a good person behaves....
I live in a different liberal city a bit further down the coast, and since Covid, I have also felt very alone. I do sometimes (rarely) try to talk to friends about the gender issue, but it's always risky, because if you don't get two hours to explain everything in depth, there's a good chance they will come away from the conversation thinking you are a bigot. I know the people in my community orchestra already think I'm a bit suspicious because I have occasionally questioned their excessive Covid-caution. I can't even imagine what would happen if I brought up the gender stuff...
I didn't really know anything about Charlie Kirk before this happened, but I would be sickened by an assassination no matter who the target was. When we talked about yesterday, my son who is in middle school says he just recently started listening to Kirk. He is thoroughly fed up with the "woke" indoctrination at his school, and is a perfect example of the conservative backlash among (in this case very) young men. Last week he got in trouble at school when he asked a classmate if she was a boy or a girl, because he couldn't tell. She was offended and angrily responded "Seriously?! I'm a they-them! I'm non-binary, I'm in the middle!" Apparently that story got around and other girls asked him if he was a Trump supporter. It didn't help that he had also asked the teacher in front of the whole class why they had to declare their pronouns on every single worksheet (the answer was that they want to be "inclusive")... He loves to rebel against the prevalent ideology, but at the same time, he craves friends and wants so badly to fit in, while being somewhat on the spectrum. I hate that I have to caution him to tone it down on the trans stuff if he doesn't want to end up socially ostracized. Kids shouldn't have to self-censor while trying to make sense of the world.
Kirk is an excellent role model—he talked to people and was always respectful. Andrew Tate is a terrible role model but so many boys and young men turn to him when they feel isolated and denigrated.
Consider being proactive, watch Kirk debates *with* your son, discuss this stuff with him, help him feel less isolated by finding community with the like-minded so that he doesn’t move on to nihilism. Nihilism drives violence.
This is very challenging but that’s why Kirk was successful—he reached young people frustrated with such ideologies and he articulated clear arguments. He was the opposite of nihilistic. Don’t worry that Kirk was “bad”— he was an evangelical so he held some views you don’t—but he didn’t denigrate unbelievers. His work is worth engaging with—especially for someone like your son. Good luck!
My son (14) came home from school, having seen the video of the shooting. I said it all made me really sad, my son said “but wasn’t he a bad person”? I asked what he knew about him and he said nothing.
We’ve had a big conversation about making your own mind up about people, if you watch his videos and read his writing and don’t like what he had to say then you can say that, but never take other peoples opinions on as your own.
I thought Charlie was brave, my daughter (13) loved his videos. The world is worse without him.
When I first saw the beginning of this piece, my immediate reaction was, oh heck no. But I read it anyway, and I think you’re right. Kirk had ideas I strongly disagreed with, but he was a debater. He should have been defeated in debate, not gunned down. What worries me now is that his death may be used to harm people. I hope I’m wrong.
In a November 2023 issue of The Atlantic, McKay Coppins wrote a sentence that keeps haunting me: "How long can a democracy last when its elected leaders live in fear of physical violence from their constituents?"
He wrote that in response to something Mitt Romney said to him as part of his article, and it was specifically talking about elected politicians. But I'm worried we're on a quick trajectory of being able to say that about anyone who expresses a political view at all. Change the original wording to, "How long can a democracy last when its citizens live in fear of physical violence from their fellow citizens because they've expressed their political views?" Two years ago (when the article was written) it was elected leaders. Yesterday it was an activist and media personality. How soon until it's regular to hear of neighbors shooting neighbors over their political views?
The rifle was recovered in the woods and trans ideology along with anti fascist was imprinted on the rifle itself, according to WSJ via FBI update. So now there will be even more anti rhetoric on trans rather than honest evaluation. Of course having those messages imlro printed on ones gun does not automatically mean shooter is trans. I have no one in my family to discuss this. I sent a screenshot to my daughter and all she said was "yeah, saw that, crazy". Ugh. But I have a great group of girlfriends who all have heavy hearts right now. Thank God I can turn to them.
In my Experience living amongst many trans people in Portland, they are violently opposed to anyone who questions their demands in even the gentlest and most respectful manner. Many of them believe that saying no to their coercion is fascism and Israel defending itself against terrorism is racism and genocide.. (so many of them have no idea of the actual history of fascism or really anything they speak so defiantly about.) it’s also well known that taking wrong sex hormones especially when going affects brain development and I see that being played out in real people often…many are stuck in teenage levels of analysis. This is my personal experience, so I could be missing details, of course
Been battling the "he deserved it" all day on Facebook. The difference between them and me is I have actually watched him over the years and they never had. They just pull down things from the internet. And, they just can't stand contrary opinions - it's all hate to them. I have read through his beliefs, and I agree with about 10%. But on free speech and how to persuade - he was good. But even if he was not - assassination is horrible for the country and should be unequivocally opposed.
have you looked also at what the MAGA world elites are saying? I've read a curated set of postings that call basically for civil war. Steve Bannon is leading the charge.
Well, yes, this is exactly why it is so dangerous to equivocate on his death. We need to universally condemn the violence. That might not work, either - but it will certainly put MAGA radicals on the defensive if they are the only ones advocating violence.
Your remarks about the loneliness of holding a view that is unpopular in one’s inner circle resonate with me. Friendships and even family relationships feel surface level when I find myself constantly having to hold back what I want to say. They all know I am opposed to trans ideology but no-one wants to understand WHY! They don’t ask any questions and if I raise the topic I am brushed off. I end up not saying things for fear of being considered a broken record and a bore. It is very hard to break the bubble of silence and it is lonely too.
I’m with you. My heart is heavy at this shooting people b ing callous. The also despised when don jr joked after Paul Pelosi was hurt. Come on let’s have some civility. Be the change you want. We have free speech. We are humanists
You can talk to me, Lisa! I suspect I disagree with most of your politics, but we are firmly in agreement on gender ideology, women, girls, children, vulnerable young people, the medical scandal, exposing the coverup, censorship, free speech, civil discourse, being curious and finding a civilized way through to people’s sensibilities. Speaking reality.
I read and enjoy the wisdom in everything you write and I look forward to Informed Dissent every Friday. Love your discussions and input.
I would love to introduce myself in Albuquerque! This is a wonderful piece on Charlie Kirk. I can’t stop crying - for him, his family, his children and the Country. He was bringing the ideals of the foundations of this Country to life. Inviting open debate and asking for the opportunity to PERSUADE people using words. But that is terrifying to leftist ideology and so they tell us, and teach our children that words are violence. And here we are.
If Charlie Kirk was so devoted to talking across differences, then why was he such a huge supporter of Donald tRump?
To me this makes little to no sense. Perhaps Kirk listened to people with whom he disagreed only to argue with them and try to convince them he was right? With his own thinking sunk deep in religious righteousness, not to mention his huge influence and the huge sums he earned for speaking engagements, I guess this was a brand he profited from.
Anyone with a truly open mind would not support tRump because tRump is an advocate of violence, cruelty and degradation.
No doubt, tRump will use this murder as an excuse for authoritarian excesses. Already ordering flags to fly at half mast is incredible given how many Americans, many children, are murdered all the time through horrific gun violence.
I agree, I thought their alliance was unfortunate. Maybe he wasn't a believer in free speech—maybe he was just trying to accomplish the realization of his worldview in a different way. Still, it was a better way.
I should say that I'm very sorry he died and I'm very sorry someone was driven to kill him. There are so many losses in this sad event. May peace be kindled in all of us survivors.
I keep listening to Dust In The Wind on repeat this morning.
Not to wallow in silence, but to give grief voice and resonance, the way a chapel gives shape to a prayer.
Charlie Kirk’s death leaves a mark because he was a figure of courage not defiance.
He insisted on speaking when he knew the cost could be high.
That is what courage is: not bravado, but a willingness to risk everything for the sake of what you believe must be said.
In that sense, he belongs to the long line of people who refused to be cowed — and who paid with their lives.
And Charlie was right: without courage, life collapses into routine, into dust before its time.
Courage is what animates us, what lifts human beings above the drift of the hours.
Charlie made that his theme, and his death makes the point all the more starkly.
Bearing witness — remembering, naming, refusing to let murder be trivialized or explained away — is itself an act of courage. It is not glamorous. It is not loud. But it is part of the same fabric.
Remember Charlie,
Because, “Nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky…”
The idea that valuing free speech was a good reason to elect Trump has been puzzling to me for a long time. I have the impression that the people who made this argument were really only interested in the concept of free speech as far as it allowed them to say whatever they want (and I'm not disputing that they should be allowed to do that). They don't see the many ways in which Trump has had a truly chilling effect on speech among elites, and has taken government action to silence people and institutions who oppose him.
But maybe that is the point - Trump's attacks on free speech, in typical autocrat fashion, are so far mostly targeted at elites, while the authoritarianism on the left targets the "little people" - in their Covid mandates, the community-enforced politically correct speech codes, social media censorship, and cancellation campaigns. "Cancel culture" affects ordinary people, while Trump's authoritarian behavior and now government actions mostly affect institutions (law firms, universities) and other politicians, who, according to the average Trump supporter, deserve what they get.
I am horrified about Kirk's murder, but his support for Trump also makes me question the depth of his commitment to free discourse, and the sincerity of his pretension that anyone could ever "prove him wrong". The fact that Trump's government is now flying flags at half-mast as if he had been a holder of public office reveals that they see him as a valuable propagandist of their political side, an inofficial officer of the MAGA movement.
All that said, anyone who silently or overtly cheers his assassination, aside from betraying a lack of basic human decency, doesn't understand that this kind of reaction, where people with "offensive views" deserve to be annihilated, is exactly why someone like Kirk was so successful.
DT is a convicted felon and a convicted sex offender, so think about that and consider that for many of us this makes him a complete embarrassment to our country.
Alleging mental illness for those with whom you disagree is the same type of poor insight as those who shout "transphobe" at everyone who questions whether children and youth should be shot-up with wrong sex hormones.
I appreciate Lisa's thoughts. As a Christian conservative, it has become clear to me that we all need to appreciate that many in the trans community are desperately struggling with reality and are susceptible to dramatic exaggerations of the threats to their very lives. Many have pre-existing mental health issues and now their fuses are short and their willingness to resort to violence is present. The Christian and other communities need to reach out with love and tenderness of care without accepting their decisions.
I respected Charlie Kirk as a self educated man, a Christian who knew the Hebrew Bible, a critical thinker, quite fast on his feet, able to counter hypocrisy. He inspired a new generation to hope in the dream of a good life, family and civility in society. Generally, he refrained from disdain or disrespect towards those who stepped up to the microphone and accused him, disrespected his movement and made specious claims. His body of work will be renowned and I imagine his funeral will be a state affair, with speeches skewering the Left for their outrageous rhetoric, which they continue as I write. I didn't agree with all of his positions but I respected him and I know if I'd met him, he would have respected me. I don't miss anything about Park Slope or Prospect Park, where I worked and played for 30 years. I'll be lighting a lot of memorial candles tonight, this Sept. 11 exactly 24 years later.
Thanks, Lisa. Keep writing and talking. Outside of Brooklyn, most people agree with you or at least some of your ideas and analysis. Can your family take a sabbatical to Ogden, Utah or North Platte, Nebraska, or anywhere in Texas except Austin? It might do you all good to break out of your geographical bubble.
Lisa, that was a great perspective on how your world sees us! I am from a different world; flyover country, graduate of state university and medical schools, and Navy retiree. Keep writing; I appreciate your tales from the dark side…
Thanks for being from a different world and joining me here.
I went to a braver angels meeting yesterday and it was inspiring to meet people who wanted to build bridges from both parties. Thank you for mentioning this organization. I learned more skills for having better conversations with my family and friends who see things in a different way than me.
I knew nothing of Charlie Kirk, so I am more or less a blank slate here. All I can say is that a young husband and father was gunned down because he said things people didn't like. That doesn't sound good to me.
Even if - and again I have no idea - he said outrageous and provocative things and even if he had profit motives that surpassed a true desire to have useful debates - he did not deserve to be killed. We are in a very dangerous time when people are murdered for their words. I don't have (or want) a BlueSky account so I don't know what that link you supplied said, but the fact that anyone would celebrate Kirk's murder, even if they thought he was a jerk (the most polite word I could think of), is quite horrifying.
Look at the videos Lisa linked. Looks like he invited people to debate him and listened to them respectfully and then gave his opinion....basically a blueprint for how a good person behaves....
Where are these links? I can’t find them
I live in a different liberal city a bit further down the coast, and since Covid, I have also felt very alone. I do sometimes (rarely) try to talk to friends about the gender issue, but it's always risky, because if you don't get two hours to explain everything in depth, there's a good chance they will come away from the conversation thinking you are a bigot. I know the people in my community orchestra already think I'm a bit suspicious because I have occasionally questioned their excessive Covid-caution. I can't even imagine what would happen if I brought up the gender stuff...
I didn't really know anything about Charlie Kirk before this happened, but I would be sickened by an assassination no matter who the target was. When we talked about yesterday, my son who is in middle school says he just recently started listening to Kirk. He is thoroughly fed up with the "woke" indoctrination at his school, and is a perfect example of the conservative backlash among (in this case very) young men. Last week he got in trouble at school when he asked a classmate if she was a boy or a girl, because he couldn't tell. She was offended and angrily responded "Seriously?! I'm a they-them! I'm non-binary, I'm in the middle!" Apparently that story got around and other girls asked him if he was a Trump supporter. It didn't help that he had also asked the teacher in front of the whole class why they had to declare their pronouns on every single worksheet (the answer was that they want to be "inclusive")... He loves to rebel against the prevalent ideology, but at the same time, he craves friends and wants so badly to fit in, while being somewhat on the spectrum. I hate that I have to caution him to tone it down on the trans stuff if he doesn't want to end up socially ostracized. Kids shouldn't have to self-censor while trying to make sense of the world.
Kirk is an excellent role model—he talked to people and was always respectful. Andrew Tate is a terrible role model but so many boys and young men turn to him when they feel isolated and denigrated.
Consider being proactive, watch Kirk debates *with* your son, discuss this stuff with him, help him feel less isolated by finding community with the like-minded so that he doesn’t move on to nihilism. Nihilism drives violence.
This is very challenging but that’s why Kirk was successful—he reached young people frustrated with such ideologies and he articulated clear arguments. He was the opposite of nihilistic. Don’t worry that Kirk was “bad”— he was an evangelical so he held some views you don’t—but he didn’t denigrate unbelievers. His work is worth engaging with—especially for someone like your son. Good luck!
My son (14) came home from school, having seen the video of the shooting. I said it all made me really sad, my son said “but wasn’t he a bad person”? I asked what he knew about him and he said nothing.
We’ve had a big conversation about making your own mind up about people, if you watch his videos and read his writing and don’t like what he had to say then you can say that, but never take other peoples opinions on as your own.
I thought Charlie was brave, my daughter (13) loved his videos. The world is worse without him.
When I first saw the beginning of this piece, my immediate reaction was, oh heck no. But I read it anyway, and I think you’re right. Kirk had ideas I strongly disagreed with, but he was a debater. He should have been defeated in debate, not gunned down. What worries me now is that his death may be used to harm people. I hope I’m wrong.
In a November 2023 issue of The Atlantic, McKay Coppins wrote a sentence that keeps haunting me: "How long can a democracy last when its elected leaders live in fear of physical violence from their constituents?"
He wrote that in response to something Mitt Romney said to him as part of his article, and it was specifically talking about elected politicians. But I'm worried we're on a quick trajectory of being able to say that about anyone who expresses a political view at all. Change the original wording to, "How long can a democracy last when its citizens live in fear of physical violence from their fellow citizens because they've expressed their political views?" Two years ago (when the article was written) it was elected leaders. Yesterday it was an activist and media personality. How soon until it's regular to hear of neighbors shooting neighbors over their political views?
The rifle was recovered in the woods and trans ideology along with anti fascist was imprinted on the rifle itself, according to WSJ via FBI update. So now there will be even more anti rhetoric on trans rather than honest evaluation. Of course having those messages imlro printed on ones gun does not automatically mean shooter is trans. I have no one in my family to discuss this. I sent a screenshot to my daughter and all she said was "yeah, saw that, crazy". Ugh. But I have a great group of girlfriends who all have heavy hearts right now. Thank God I can turn to them.
In my Experience living amongst many trans people in Portland, they are violently opposed to anyone who questions their demands in even the gentlest and most respectful manner. Many of them believe that saying no to their coercion is fascism and Israel defending itself against terrorism is racism and genocide.. (so many of them have no idea of the actual history of fascism or really anything they speak so defiantly about.) it’s also well known that taking wrong sex hormones especially when going affects brain development and I see that being played out in real people often…many are stuck in teenage levels of analysis. This is my personal experience, so I could be missing details, of course
Excellent analysis
Been battling the "he deserved it" all day on Facebook. The difference between them and me is I have actually watched him over the years and they never had. They just pull down things from the internet. And, they just can't stand contrary opinions - it's all hate to them. I have read through his beliefs, and I agree with about 10%. But on free speech and how to persuade - he was good. But even if he was not - assassination is horrible for the country and should be unequivocally opposed.
have you looked also at what the MAGA world elites are saying? I've read a curated set of postings that call basically for civil war. Steve Bannon is leading the charge.
Well, yes, this is exactly why it is so dangerous to equivocate on his death. We need to universally condemn the violence. That might not work, either - but it will certainly put MAGA radicals on the defensive if they are the only ones advocating violence.
Your remarks about the loneliness of holding a view that is unpopular in one’s inner circle resonate with me. Friendships and even family relationships feel surface level when I find myself constantly having to hold back what I want to say. They all know I am opposed to trans ideology but no-one wants to understand WHY! They don’t ask any questions and if I raise the topic I am brushed off. I end up not saying things for fear of being considered a broken record and a bore. It is very hard to break the bubble of silence and it is lonely too.
I know exactly how you feel mate.
I’m with you. My heart is heavy at this shooting people b ing callous. The also despised when don jr joked after Paul Pelosi was hurt. Come on let’s have some civility. Be the change you want. We have free speech. We are humanists
You can talk to me, Lisa! I suspect I disagree with most of your politics, but we are firmly in agreement on gender ideology, women, girls, children, vulnerable young people, the medical scandal, exposing the coverup, censorship, free speech, civil discourse, being curious and finding a civilized way through to people’s sensibilities. Speaking reality.
I read and enjoy the wisdom in everything you write and I look forward to Informed Dissent every Friday. Love your discussions and input.
I would love to introduce myself in Albuquerque! This is a wonderful piece on Charlie Kirk. I can’t stop crying - for him, his family, his children and the Country. He was bringing the ideals of the foundations of this Country to life. Inviting open debate and asking for the opportunity to PERSUADE people using words. But that is terrifying to leftist ideology and so they tell us, and teach our children that words are violence. And here we are.
If Charlie Kirk was so devoted to talking across differences, then why was he such a huge supporter of Donald tRump?
To me this makes little to no sense. Perhaps Kirk listened to people with whom he disagreed only to argue with them and try to convince them he was right? With his own thinking sunk deep in religious righteousness, not to mention his huge influence and the huge sums he earned for speaking engagements, I guess this was a brand he profited from.
Anyone with a truly open mind would not support tRump because tRump is an advocate of violence, cruelty and degradation.
No doubt, tRump will use this murder as an excuse for authoritarian excesses. Already ordering flags to fly at half mast is incredible given how many Americans, many children, are murdered all the time through horrific gun violence.
I agree, I thought their alliance was unfortunate. Maybe he wasn't a believer in free speech—maybe he was just trying to accomplish the realization of his worldview in a different way. Still, it was a better way.
I should say that I'm very sorry he died and I'm very sorry someone was driven to kill him. There are so many losses in this sad event. May peace be kindled in all of us survivors.
I keep listening to Dust In The Wind on repeat this morning.
Not to wallow in silence, but to give grief voice and resonance, the way a chapel gives shape to a prayer.
Charlie Kirk’s death leaves a mark because he was a figure of courage not defiance.
He insisted on speaking when he knew the cost could be high.
That is what courage is: not bravado, but a willingness to risk everything for the sake of what you believe must be said.
In that sense, he belongs to the long line of people who refused to be cowed — and who paid with their lives.
And Charlie was right: without courage, life collapses into routine, into dust before its time.
Courage is what animates us, what lifts human beings above the drift of the hours.
Charlie made that his theme, and his death makes the point all the more starkly.
Bearing witness — remembering, naming, refusing to let murder be trivialized or explained away — is itself an act of courage. It is not glamorous. It is not loud. But it is part of the same fabric.
Remember Charlie,
Because, “Nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky…”
In the end, we are all dust.
Be brave now- while it counts.
Like Charlie Kirk.♥️💔♥️
The idea that valuing free speech was a good reason to elect Trump has been puzzling to me for a long time. I have the impression that the people who made this argument were really only interested in the concept of free speech as far as it allowed them to say whatever they want (and I'm not disputing that they should be allowed to do that). They don't see the many ways in which Trump has had a truly chilling effect on speech among elites, and has taken government action to silence people and institutions who oppose him.
But maybe that is the point - Trump's attacks on free speech, in typical autocrat fashion, are so far mostly targeted at elites, while the authoritarianism on the left targets the "little people" - in their Covid mandates, the community-enforced politically correct speech codes, social media censorship, and cancellation campaigns. "Cancel culture" affects ordinary people, while Trump's authoritarian behavior and now government actions mostly affect institutions (law firms, universities) and other politicians, who, according to the average Trump supporter, deserve what they get.
I am horrified about Kirk's murder, but his support for Trump also makes me question the depth of his commitment to free discourse, and the sincerity of his pretension that anyone could ever "prove him wrong". The fact that Trump's government is now flying flags at half-mast as if he had been a holder of public office reveals that they see him as a valuable propagandist of their political side, an inofficial officer of the MAGA movement.
All that said, anyone who silently or overtly cheers his assassination, aside from betraying a lack of basic human decency, doesn't understand that this kind of reaction, where people with "offensive views" deserve to be annihilated, is exactly why someone like Kirk was so successful.
Another TDS sufferer.
Seeing Trump for who he is and questioning the wisdom of anyone's support for him is not deranged. Quit pathologizing people who disagree with you.
DT is a convicted felon and a convicted sex offender, so think about that and consider that for many of us this makes him a complete embarrassment to our country.
Alleging mental illness for those with whom you disagree is the same type of poor insight as those who shout "transphobe" at everyone who questions whether children and youth should be shot-up with wrong sex hormones.
I appreciate Lisa's thoughts. As a Christian conservative, it has become clear to me that we all need to appreciate that many in the trans community are desperately struggling with reality and are susceptible to dramatic exaggerations of the threats to their very lives. Many have pre-existing mental health issues and now their fuses are short and their willingness to resort to violence is present. The Christian and other communities need to reach out with love and tenderness of care without accepting their decisions.